YPMS Episode 12: Manufacturing and selling supplements profitably on Facebook Ads with serial successful entrepreneur Kevin Urrutia

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Show Notes

Casey Stanton
You’re listening to your perfect marketing strategy, the only podcast to teach you what marketing tactics are working right now, how to know which tactics are right for your business, and the immediate steps you can take to deploy those tactics to grow your business today. Hey, it’s your host, Casey standing with https://cmox.co, the fractional Chief Marketing Officer company. And I’m here with Kevin Urrutia. Founder Voy Media, the co author of Digital Marketing Made Easy: A-Z Growth Strategies and Key Concepts of Digital Marketing. Also the founder of a maid service company with over 200 employees, the founder of Chester Travel Luggage company, and the founder of Montem Outdoor Gear where they sell trekking poles. Kevin is based in New York City. And he’s joining me today for us to talk all about how to sell supplements using Facebook Ads. And I’m excited about this conversation because it’s hard to sell supplements. There’s been a lot of issues in selling supplements, because I think a lot of bad actors have kind of, you know, spoiled the comments for everybody else. And I’m going to drill Kevin about what’s working and why it’s working and how it’s working. We’re going to talk about the type of coffee to use the type of ads to use, what offers are good. And I mean, really just kind of give you an under the cover of what’s up in the supplement industry. I’ve been interested in this for a long time when I first started in marketing. And the first businesses I started with an old roommate was a supplement company because it sounded so attractive, and it never got off the ground for a number of reasons. But I feel like I’m finally gonna get all of my questions answered. So Kevin, I’m super excited that you’re here and to hear about your prowess with Facebook ads. And I don’t know just kind of get a sense for like, how you’ve been such a successful entrepreneur with all these companies. So welcome to the show, dude.

Kevin Urrutia
Thanks. Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here. And yeah, I love supplements. It’s my new my new passion now.

Casey Stanton
Cool. All right. It’s your new passion. So you say that but like to have like a maid service company with over 200 employees, Chester travel with this luxury luggage gear? You’ve got these trekking poles at mountain? Why did you move from these other markets to supplements?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, so I have my main company, great business started about six years ago. And like any business, like, what’s what’s it’s a service based business. So as you sort of want to scale up and grow, you need more people, right? So it’s like, for me, it was like, Okay, I gotta constantly hire, constantly train, and constantly, just hire more human. And that requires more human capital, which is unpredictable, right? Humans are unpredictable. So I was like, Okay, let me go do e commerce, because if I can make a widget, I can make that hundreds of times, and they’ll still be the same quality. That’s kind of what I thought about it for us. But I’m thinking about, like, how can I sell more without having to hire more people essentially. So it was like, oh, e commerce makes sense. And then I did montem. And like I said, Before, we sell trekking poles. So trekking poles, our main product that we sell there. And we also, we also sell Kevin blankets, and the new sort of flagship product, which is a packable rain jacket. So those are two, three products we sell.

Casey Stanton
Now, one thing I just hear right there, and what you’re saying is, we sell three things. Like you don’t say, we’ve got an Amazon store where we sell, you know, 5000 skews.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, oh, yeah, just three things. Yeah. Just like just things that we make ourselves that we are, we’ve tested and we say, Hey, we like the quality of this, like the jacket that took us about a year and a half of product research to make the first one that we made v1 was not good. And and we learned so much from that one. One thing is the jacket was like a rain jacket. It when you wore it after like an hour or so you got so sweaty inside of it because of the material. So the two we had the ad like zip pit zips. So that way you can like unzip your your pits and like you can let air out. So that’s sort of like quite typical, like product development, product research is like you have to listen to your customers and stop. So that’s where like we did that for montem.

Casey Stanton
That’s really interesting. So you, you have Would you say that just like generally in your life, you’ve left the human capital side of like the business models, like you’re leaving behind business models that rely on a lot of people. Is that true?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. And I think it’s, I think it’s a great business owner, like you can hire great people, but like, I think it’s it’s just tough and even like right now what I’m doing, boy, it’s still a human, you still require human people to like grow the agency or the business. It’s just I think, I think it’s really hard when people think that like you’re gonna have like this sort of like nine to five like, we’re like Tim Ferriss four hour workweek. I think that’s too hard. I don’t think that’s possible that really, I think you’re still gonna need to work a lot and work with other people and, and sort of like talk to the people to help grow a business in general.

Casey Stanton
Just to poke at Tim Ferriss for a second. Do you really think he’s a four hour workweek anymore? Where do we get a four hour workweek just long enough to write a book

Kevin Urrutia
Just long enough to write a book, Tim, Tim Ferriss like Tim Ferriss like yeah, like he definitely doesn’t have like a four hour maybe now because like, he just is really rich, of course, right? He invested in like Uber and has kind of money now. But before I don’t I think that story is it’s like anything. I mean, you know, it’s a marketing story. Like, it’s, it’s something that you want to believe, and it’s inspirational.

Casey Stanton
But I do think that there probably is a route to have a four hour workweek, you just your earning potential is relatively limited, unless you’re just gonna do some 60 hour weeks to prep you over the course of a couple years for maybe some four hour weeks. But that business isn’t going to last forever. Now in this age of like, dramatic, automation and decentralisation. And like, if you’ve got an edge right now, you’re gonna lose that edge in a couple years, and your four hour workweek is gonna be gone, right?

Kevin Urrutia
It’s gonna be gone into and I think, like what you said before, it’s like you can have that, it’s just depends on the type of business you’re running. Sometimes you just want to be yourself and you’ll be happy earning X amount of dollars a month. But for me, I didn’t want that sort of lifestyle, I want to work and sort of make money, right? I think like anybody’s like, Hey, I really want to enjoy what I doing and wonder, like, not retired because I like the stuff I’m doing. And kind of what kind of the story is saying it’s like, I like to just do new businesses and things because that excites me.

Casey Stanton
I think that’s great, and a great motivation. The motivation isn’t about like, obscene wealth or anything like that. I heard a guy. His name’s Jason Gaddis at the relationship school and he said, in this plane of existence, like being successful is part of the game. Yeah. And it’s just a game right? It’s not like the stakes are incredibly high. It’s just like it’s a game to play and find a way to be successful and that’s a good motivation. And and it doesn’t need to have like any other connotations around like a level of greed or anything behind that right?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, no, it’s just like people think anything people just want to be accomplished and be proud of the work you’re doing and work with people that also feel that same way too.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, totally. Okay, cool. So why supplements?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, so the reason why we’re doing supplements now is so I was never into supplements until maybe a year ago. And it really was because we’re just like researching new products to make obviously montone Like I said before, it’s a physical product then we move on to Chester another physical product but if you think about Chester’s a luggage company so so Carol carry on luggage is the medium sized luggage is and the large ones. And we thought it did a great business model like hey, we didn’t see them he didn’t see competitors at the moment at that time. But what we didn’t realise he was just like us was kind of like not thinking about it too much. was just a shipping as be crazy expensive. Shipping a luggage is almost like 4050 bucks by like ups. And well. So even though we’re charging what maybe 250 200 on the luggage 50 is really just shipping right? So the margins are okay on it. But as you sort of are you know, like anything, it’s like you’re doing ads, you’re doing discounts, that eats away your margin, and then I was like, Oh my god, I need to do something else. So then I was like, thinking of like, me and Wilson were thinking of things and we’re just like, oh, maybe we should do supplements. And the reason why that sort of came to me because I was like let the title was learning about long form sales copy right? And so are you learning that from so I was like, I was just like in these like copywriting Facebook groups, and people were asking like you name one. Yeah, so I was like in like, the biggest one is probably like one of those Clickbank websites, Clickbank, sort of

Casey Stanton
Okay Clickbank being the platform for those folks that don’t know, Clickbank is like a website where marketers can match up with products. So if you have a mailing list, or if you’re an ad guy or a copywriter, whatever, you just go and find a product and they say, you sell my product. I’ll give you 50% or 80% or 20%, right?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, exactly. And then I was also in like, this other like Facebook group called like, swipe, swipe, swipe. It’s basically like a swipe file like ad copy from like old, old school people, like, you know, like, Gary Halbert, stuff like that. And all these guys are saying like, hey, like, all these long form copies used to sell How come nowadays no one’s doing it? I was like, yep, we’re learning about it. And I kept looking at Clickbank and Clickbank is great if people want to go and just do like product research, you can see what’s actually selling out there and how many sales we’re getting, because it’s a great website. And then I was on there and like every supplement company in the health space was like using long form copy, right? Sounds like these guys, like probably doing tonnes of money a month on like affiliate revenue. So something here must be working. And that’s kind of how I got into like, learning more about supplements and kind of what it takes. And I started learning about like, Hey, there is this, like, factories out there in California that are fftc certified that like can actually make you a custom formula, and it does not that expensive. And really why I liked about supplements is because it’s a pill bottle. And obviously every no the pill bought it’s pretty small. So storing in a warehouse and shipping is very cheap. That’s the one thing I saw. I was like, Oh, this is really cheap, right. Second thing was that pills and sort of like the sort of supplements, they have a high perceived value, even though to produce them. It’s very cheap, right? producing something that you probably buy like as a title, for example. Probably costing maybe like what, at least at the scale they’re doing may what 60 cents, but they’re selling it for like what 1015 box like that, right? So…

Casey Stanton
Right, exactly.

Kevin Urrutia
The margins are so much higher than any sort of other legit DTC thing out there. Because other companies ended up like for trekking poles or I just use my own company, for example, is we started pocket 4999 competitor comes in sells it for 899, there is a thing that you can compare to say, hey, you’re expensive, I’m gonna buy the cheaper one. Whereas supplements, if with long form sales copy, you can sort of give your unique story about why this supplement Why you didn’t buy this product, it’s much harder to sort of compare in someone’s mind will be beyond the pure price.

Casey Stanton
Okay, so I think this is really important, because what you’re kind of talking about here is potentially selling a commodity. And maybe a lot of people here work with companies or own a company that sells a commodity. And a commodity is just like, where people price shop. Yep. And I think of like, I think this pizza place that I go to here in Philadelphia called shackamaxon Maxim Street. And it’s pizza. There’s so many pizza shops in Philly. But why do I go to the one that I go to? It’s honestly because they tell a better story. Right? And I’m not I’m not willing to go to circles and squares and like, try their food out because I know the story of shackamaxon. And I’m sold on the story. Yep. Right. So when you sell a commodity, how are you differentiating with story?

Kevin Urrutia
So for us, at least with like, let’s say, Montana, it was kind of like, hey, look, we’re hikers for hikers. But we really just sold as like a product that, hey, we’re cheaper. But with a supplement company, we’re really falling like a script, in a formula with long form sales copy, going back to it before long form sales copy works really well for supplements when it’s a commodity, especially when it’s like something obvious. But the way that we think about long form sales copy and how we write it now is we’re doing like, anything that’s anywhere between 5000 to like 6000 words, just out of supplement. Right? So and this is how we sort of we have like a process in here system really, for us when we’re doing this. It’s like, we call it the problem, right? Whatever you’re selling, let’s say you can poop, right? There’s poop supplements are really massive, big right now. It’s probably one of the biggest elements we’re seeing. All over though. It’s crazy. It’s the thing that the crazy thing about it’s like, I used to take this stuff when like my parents would give to us when we were younger, to just do it for fun, but I realise that it’s actually a problem people have. And this is why like, this is the thing I like about cycling. I’m laughing I’m you. It’s like It’s really big. It’s crazy how massive this space is. I know people in this space right now doing one or $2 million a month selling us a supplement right now.

Casey Stanton
Incredible.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah.

Casey Stanton
What do you say that you mean? Just like a fibre supplement?

Kevin Urrutia
No, kinda like a fibre or something? Yeah, essentially, kind of like yeah, like the fibre one. Are you pricing that that orange one, right, that orange fibre you mix them in like orange juice?

Casey Stanton
Yeah, Metamucil?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. And that’s the one that the company makes a tonne of money, by the way, like from that supplement?

Casey Stanton
And people sure, but they also pay like grocery fees. Yeah, they have to pay like stocking fees. It’s a wholesale business. It’s like, it’s very different than a direct to consumer. And, and like Metamucil is one of those things where people buy it and have it forever. And it’s part of their daily habit to have a, you know, a pill every morning and their water or their orange juice. But what I think is interesting here is like your ability to create a story that can sell it at a premium price.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, yep, exactly. And that’s really the story is that but going back to what you said about Metamucil is, that’s why I also like what supplements is kind of what you just said, you make it a part of your everyday life. That means your customer lifetime value is so high because they need to keep buying it over and over again. Whereas my trekking poles, you buy it once you kind of use it for five years. That’s it.

Casey Stanton
And that’s like such a that’s such a slow to change principle of business, which is buy something that has continuity in it. Mm hmm. And you’re right, you will What am I gonna buy next? I worked with the company years ago that sold kitchen cabinets, and they were very successful in it. People love them had great customer service. They did all the things right. But then you sold kitchen cabinets to someone What next? Yeah, what next is like under the counter lights. Oh, also garage cabinets. We even looked at getting into caskets.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. Right.

Casey Stanton
Casket is the is the definition of a one and done.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. one and done. Yeah, I think yeah, I think it’s funny. You’re saying that because initially when you start a business, it’s like you only think about like that one and done. But then as you sort of talk to more people, it’s like, Well, okay, what’s the continuity, because I’m tired of like selling one and done products, I want to keep that customer for a long time.

Casey Stanton
Totally. And if you do a one and done product, I think there’s a company that that I’ve purchased from we’ve got a like a four, he’s a five month old, baby. And we bought a programme from taking care of babies and it was like sleep stuff, like how to how to help him sleep better and make sure he gets enough sleep and what are the cues for it and how do you grow? And like when do we transition them from the bassinet to the crib and When does he go to his own room, and like there’s a logical stepping stone for me to go from like ORDER TO ORDER TO ORDER without continuity. So I think that that’s like a cool business model and the lifetime customer value. There is like still 500 bucks, which I think is pretty good. But a supplement is way better, because I’m gonna be on that supplement for a long, long time.

Kevin Urrutia
Exactly. And that’s the thing. It’s like any product you make, you have to make sure it’s good that way you keep the customer for a long, long time. I think back then people were like, just making these products that suck, but now it’s like, hey, at least for like anybody like after a few businesses, your mentality is like, okay, I wanna make something good because I don’t want to keep starting new businesses over and over again. Because it’s just like so stressful and it just like takes up a lot of mental energy.

Casey Stanton
So you found some products that were sold on Clickbank to give you some ideas was Clickbank selling physical products to this?

Kevin Urrutia
Yes, it’s funny to say that because Clickbank used to just be like info products every now and then they like I think they partnered with like somebody to add in this like e commerce component of it. But interesting enough for Clickbank what works really well is selling the info product on the front end as like a low ticket offer, right like 999. And then your upsell is that soulmate. And that just like works really well. And that’s kind of like a new funnel we’re trying to build out as well. So for example, I say, yeah, let’s say for example, like hey, like, go back to the poop thing, right? Hey, having trouble pooping, here’s our like a 20 page PDF guide of like, what to eat, to poop better. It’s like, oh, by the way, you purchase for 10 bucks. And then you say, Hey, we know that you’re looking for this thing here, take our own our natural supplement that’s going to help you poop better every morning, right? So you see how like going back to a four, there’s a clear path to upgrade them to your to your product. That’s like much higher margin

Casey Stanton
In the most recent podcast episode. I talked with a guy about the book breakthrough advertising and Eugene Schwartz talks about problem aware and solution aware. And when you’re, when you’re in a market where people don’t know that they have a problem or don’t know the name of their problem or don’t know how to solve their problem, there has to be an educational component. And I think like, I mean, we’ll go into this long copy piece and why long copies? Great. But I think like what you’re talking about here is before you sell someone a thing, you have to educate them on, like all the potential solutions for it, and then to show that your solution is superior.

Kevin Urrutia
And that’s exactly it. It’s your solution. If the period and your solution get there, get to them get to their problem solution quicker. It’s the quicker like, Hey, we have a quick solution. People love me. Right? Right. That’s what I tell people. Like, why do people always want to be like a 10 minute workout? Because it’s like, hey, how can I lose weight in only 10 minutes? Right?

Casey Stanton
That’s a really good, that’s a good note. I think like in marketing, we can do things to add urgency, and we can add a guarantee and all this stuff. But are we selling and showing how we solve the problem fast? Yeah, that’s a really good note, huh?

Kevin Urrutia
Fast is always that like, even for any ad copy people listening, it’s like, hey, fast way to do this? Because you do want outcomes, right? That’s the thing you’re selling in the market. Yes, lately. Right. An outcome.

Casey Stanton
I was heard when people buy a drill bit, they don’t buy a drill bit, they actually buy a hole. Yeah. Right. You know, buying a supplement, you’re buying a more comfortable day. Comfortable day.

Kevin Urrutia
Exactly. And that’s why like, Look, and that’s why I like long form sales copy, because you can sort of show that versus like, Hey, this is what you’re buying, you’re buying that story that you believe in, like, Oh, I’m having this issue, right. So for us, going back to the copy, really how we structure this and this is for long form sales copy, and also how we structure just ads in general, it’s, we’d like to really call it the problem. Like I said before, hey, having trouble going to bathroom, something like that. And then really, you get this sort of tease them saying like, promised promised solution to the pain point right in one or two sentences, or promises save them time or money depending if you’re doing like a final product. And then here, you want to go to sort of like the emotional discovery story, right? That we call it and about, hey, like you’re stealing upset how, like, at night just couldn’t go to the bathroom, like your stomach was hurting and kind of like, really, especially if you if you have this issue, every nose corner bathtub and stuff. And you’re like, oh, man, every one of our bathroom, like, write that down in paper, because you want to be really emotional about it, like reading a book. And you can kind of like feel it like, oh, whoa, like, this is a really good book. Like, I feel like I’m in that character. It really that’s how you should be thinking about when you’re writing this sort of long form sales copy.

Casey Stanton
So let’s talk about long form sales copy. So the the history of long form sales copy is like the the old dead greats of copywriting. Like Claude Hopkins and john kennedy, they said things like, like an advertisement is not a promotion. It is the salesman, right? Like the advertisement must be the salesman. Replace the salesman with written word.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah.

Casey Stanton
And how do you do that? Because if you ever try to buy something like, I like anything of cost, like, you’re gonna have a decision to make, and if you talk to a salesperson on it, they’re gonna answer your questions and you’re gonna have objections, and they’re gonna show you why it’s better and then they’re gonna say, here’s the guarantee. And here’s the return policy, but also look at these people who’ve got it and hey, Frank, didn’t your wife Buy that thing and like, they’re gonna do all of that stuff for you. That’s what the sales man or the salesperson does. So your, your advertising, advertising your your marketing copy needs to say that same thing. Do you agree?

Kevin Urrutia
That’s exactly what it is. And, and even for, like, let’s say people on the call that do sales calls, right? You do a sales call. That’s right, right what you’re saying in like a text format. And that’s right from sales copy, at least for us here at boy, we do sales calls all the time, we recorded a one hour video sales letter, which essentially a text letter and video format, about everything we do that way when we talk to prospects for lead, say, Hey, watch this VSL. And then let’s give them a call. Because once you understand what we’re selling, then our pitch now instead of making it two hours, it can be 30 minutes, right?

Casey Stanton
Right. And i think that there’s a natural progression here. So let’s talk about it. It’s like the natural progression is, and I’ll just use like sales man here because I think that like a lot of these hucksters, like at the turn of the century were salesmen. Not that you or any of us are being hucksters. But I think like that’s where people tend to go mentally. So they would promote this thing. And they would go in, like stand at the corner of the city. And they would like proclaim that their Miracle Cure was a miracle cure. And they would like sell it with story and emotion and people were interested in and then they wouldn’t say like, Oh, we’ve only got a few units, and they would sell out and it would play into all of these different hooks of effective sales. And then that progressed into a more I’d say mature approach, which is mailing people sending people letters and people like Gary bencivenga Gary Halbert. I mean, David Deutsch, he’s one of the greats that still alive. These guys, they write, copy, and it gets mailed to people. And we’re talking like a 10 piece letter. I just received something in the mail the other day from the New Yorker. And it was like, a letter. And it was a whole experience when I opened up this kind of like thick letter. Yeah, I opened it up. And it was like kind of folded in a special way. And the first thing it said was like, I have a special gift for you. And then like the next page was like for postcards, and then this other thing, and then ultimately, they wanted me to subscribe. But they walked me through this whole logical process of like, intrigue, gift, flattery discount urgency. And by the end of it, you’re kind of like, this is a pretty good deal.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, exactly. Good deal, give you an FAQ, like how do I get my money back? Right,

Casey Stanton
Answers all of my questions and even answers the questions I hadn’t thought I had yet. Which I would probably have after I asked my wife about it. You know, Hey, honey, what are you think about us getting the New Yorker? She’s like, what if we don’t like it? Yeah, right. Well, then they have in the FAQ. So they overcome all of the objections that exist.

Kevin Urrutia
And so Yep, exactly. And even like kind of what you’re saying it’s Yes, it’s this is like long form sales copy. But if people are listening or doing like e commerce, I tell people like the biggest mistake I see people doing e commerce is like their product descriptions, like two sentences, and then doesn’t answer anything about the product or sort of how can help them FAQs. And you’ve probably seen a tkc it’s like you go to Amazon. Amazon product pages are like this massive sales page of videos, answers reviews. All the successful ones are Yeah, yeah. It’s like crazy.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, I think that’s a good point. I think of Dr. Steven gundry. In the role. You mean like not only is he like a solid what thoracic surgeon cardiothoracic surgeon or something. But he’s also like, supported by Craig Clemens, who is an incredible copywriter with golden hippo. And they sell on their website. It’s a it’s a, what you would shop if you went over to, you know, gundry md.com would be kind of boilerplate. It doesn’t look all that fancy. But when you slide into those funnels man Yeah, he would those video sales letters that are just like, gripping, right?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. gundry is probably like, the top like supplements guy like he has a sales video for like almost every product in the world, which is so crazy.

Casey Stanton
Why that’s crazy is what like because of the time it takes to create it?

Kevin Urrutia
the time it takes to create it. And also they just like they truly for me, I’m like, wow, these guys get it. Like they’ve been doing it for so long that they have the formula down pat, like, like anything like you probably know, Casey. It’s like gundry, for example. He’s not randomly saying stuff on the screen. It’s like everything’s scripted and formulated in a way that he never even rails

Casey Stanton
Yeah, every word is is like pre programmed. Yep. There’s no fluff in there.

Kevin Urrutia
There’s no and I tell people like, kinda it’s funny because like, you probably know that, like, we’re saying everything’s pre programmed. A lot of people be like, oh, but doesn’t sound natural. And I’m just like, well look at movies, they look natural. And that’s all pre programmed, like, the actors aren’t going on there to randomly adlib the whole movie, right?

Casey Stanton
So it’s like, this is the Will Ferrell movie, like otherwise, every other movie. You’re right. Completely scripted.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. And that’s the thing too. It’s like people. And this is also goes like, just like kind of sales in general. Like, what I’d have a sales call that’s scripted, but it’s natural, because I’ve practised it so much, and until People like simply with sales copy, it’s you practising the format, the way you’re writing it. It’s like a book. Yeah, it got it has to keep you entertained. If not, you’re not gonna read the book.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s more that you’re the director. Yes. Seems right. Like, I’m not here to convince you. I’m here to direct your attention that, Hey, that was a problem that you face the other night? And did you know that there are these solutions? And those solutions will only take you so far, but this supplement will take you all the way.

Kevin Urrutia
Exactly. And that’s exactly what it is. It’s it’s you’re leading them through this like, thing of saying, Hey, I’m discovery, essentially, hey, this is what this is. This is what happened to me. Maybe it also happened to you, and how can I relate to you? Maybe and then I’m gonna say like, hey, briefly, like, you know what you want to address like other solutions you had, hey, we know you’ve tried this, you know Metamucil and it didn’t work. You’re like, Oh, yeah, I did try that. Right. It’s like, okay, it’s like, now this is why it didn’t work. It’s because didn’t have this ingredient that we found right through our trip during the Jamaica’s. Right, so like that, right? So you see, like, Oh, what’s that? Like? What’s that secret now? Right. So it’s like, what is your What is your take on that thing? So

Casey Stanton
Okay, so you’ve gotten you kind of like, fell in love with long copy, which I think is, to me that it’s like, so fun. Yeah, I think back to like, when I started to fall in love with marketing. It was like, as a kid reading boy’s life magazine, and in the back that a hoverboard. And you know, I could send away for plans for it. It wasn’t incredibly long copy. But you know what, man, it was emotional. And I was like, holy shit, I could have a hoverboard. You know, it’s like with blow dryers or you know, leaf blowers or whatever, you kind of build the thing. And, and it got me emotional. So I’m wondering now that like, you’ve, you’ve been bitten by this long copy bug, and you’ve kind of like, read the testaments of like the great copywriters of yesteryear. How is how have you applied that outside of supplements, you said that you did it for a sales video at your agency, but what about like the, the other companies that you own.

Kevin Urrutia
So for the other companies wait for the for, let’s say, for montem, we did, we do have a landing page, and it’s a long form sales copy of like a problem. So from going back to montem. So we understand we sell trekking poles, but that is for hikers, and that’s our main audience. But something that we’re realising while it’s on the product is that a lot of older people maybe 50 Plus, with like knee pain and joint pain, were using them. So then we made a landing page. That’s kind of like what’s not super long, but it’s more just about this knee pain and joint pain problem and and how’s trekking poles can help them walk longer and better. And that’s how we’ve used it in like a different format. So that’s one way for for montem. For Chester, we haven’t used it too much. But the biggest one that we did, for at least for us that’s super helpful is the video sales letter. The video sales letter is essentially just comes before it’s like a video version of a tech sales letter to sell. And that one’s an hour long. So that’s like, that’s an hour long video sales letter that we send to prospects before they even get an A call to talk to us.

Casey Stanton
They’re gonna be like, no one watches an hour long video. What do you say to those people?

Kevin Urrutia
It’s people see that all the time. It’s like I’m like it surprises surprisingly, people do watch it, especially if it’s like entertaining and actually hits a pain point that they’re experiencing. I think that’s the key thing. It’s, it makes it a pain point or problem that they have. And and sometimes people will be like, hey, look at this video sales letter, and you’re like, Oh my god, I just want to watch it. It’s probably because it doesn’t resonate with you. And that’s why sometimes marketing is tricky, because you will look at something and be like, oh, that would never work from like, it wouldn’t work for you. Because you’re not that target audience or markets until I tell people all the time, like get out of your own head. Like this isn’t about you. This is about the person that’s actually experiencing this problem or problem.

Casey Stanton
Totally This is the marketers fallacy, which is because it doesn’t work for me. It doesn’t work for anyone. And it’s like listen, first of all you’re wrong. Right?

Kevin Urrutia
Very right. Like you’re like the scarcity stuff to like you’re like oh my god, how do people believe scarcity? I’m like, because you know the scarcity it’s it’s in your mind and you know, it’s not real, but like people don’t know that. People don’t know like Facebook is people don’t run Instagrams don’t buy Facebook…

Casey Stanton
Instagrams way better because it’s not Facebook?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, I’m like, Oh my god, like, I’m gonna delete Facebook. I’m like, Okay, well, you’re still using Instagram, right? So

Casey Stanton
Yeah, totally. Okay, so, let’s go back to supplements because I find them to be interesting. I was once told sell a painkiller, not a vitamin, because it doesn’t matter. You know how much it doesn’t matter what happens in your day. If you’re in pain, you’re gonna take your painkiller, but you might skip your vitamin in the morning. Yep. So, first of all, like how, how do you find good problems to solve or good supplements to sell?

Kevin Urrutia
For us, we always like to doing health stuff that we’re where you need, you Will you kindly say, well, you need to take it or else it’s kind of like one of those like life or death type of things. And of course, that’s like tricky and scary for some people. But if you have, if you are someone is in like the blood sugar support, right where you need it right for, like diabetes to, for example. So for us, that kind of makes sense for you need to take it every day, or else like you might not live, right. So you just need to make sure that that’s, that’s what where we think about it, because we know, that’s how we think we can get the customer lifetime value, or we can help the best we are we can help them we have actually done research on the products that we do what we want to sell. So it’s like everything we do gets tested by the lab and and make sure that it actually works.

Casey Stanton
So are you doing private label, which is to those listening, you can go and say, Oh, I want to do a vitamin D? And they’re going to sell you, you know, vitamin D? And any quantity and any pill bottle size with your label on it? Or are you guys doing your own custom formulations?

Kevin Urrutia
So for us, it’s our own custom formulation. Where because I think that’s better in the long run. Because you know, we can copy it, of course, like the label, the ingredients are in the back of every bottle. So then you can just do your own version. But yeah, for us all custom. So for us, we’re selling a powder. And we’re also selling a pill as well. So we’re doing the two formats for someone can take.

Casey Stanton
So how do you get around that? I think is I mean, coca cola? I know what the ingredients are? But there’s like natural flavours. There’s these like, proprietary blends of yada, yada. And that I think is how you kind of obfuscate your ingredient. Is that true?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, no, that’s exactly true. It’s, there’s always going to be like the core ingredient. And then there’s like, the thing that you can say like, you know, natural colouring natural tastes. And that’s like what you put in or like the quantities that you mix. You don’t you don’t need to put that. And that’s kind of where like your uniqueness comes in.

Casey Stanton
And that makes sense. Okay, so just what’s the like? What’s the starting price to do a custom formulation?

Kevin Urrutia
So for us, it’s actually not that expensive. So kind of what we said before, there’s all these factories or websites out there, I forgot. The name is blanking out for me. But there’s a tonne of them, where you can just contact them and just say like, hey, I want to do this, like, Why don’t you say hey, like I saw this document that’s selling well on like Clickbank? Can we do something similar, right, but I want to make mine unique. And then they you can talk to them. And they’ll say like, really for us it was cost less than $5,000. And that’s because you’re getting samples, because you’re testing bottle sizes, you’re testing pill sizes, it’s really not that expensive as people might think, especially when you’re working with these facilities that do this for other people. And that’s the thing that you want to look for is because remember, when you work with these facilities, now you’re going to pay for all these licences because the facility has them and then you can piggyback again on those sort of licences.

Casey Stanton
Oh, that’s a great point. Yeah, just let that facility already. Yeah, take care of that stuff for you. I’ve got a friend who does his own supplements and has his own. I don’t even know like physician. Oh, yeah, and does the review. And then he has to do like the review from the FDA or whatever.

Kevin Urrutia
That’s the I think that’s like the better way, but like when you’re starting out like you can’t that that’s super expensive. So he must be doing a lot of money that

Casey Stanton
I don’t think he is. He’s burdened with, like, limits his ability to spend on traffic.

Kevin Urrutia
But I would say people yeah, I’ll tell you like anything. It’s, it’s an investment, right. So definitely something you want to be thinking about. But there’s places out there that make it easier for you. And there’s others kind of what you said before Casey, there’s private label ones for say, hey, just slap my label on it. So that’s a great way for you to get started if you want to think about it. But like anything I’ve done, at least for me, like montem or Chester, everything there is custom. So that’s kind of why I like doing that. Because it’s sort of what my back that’s sort of what I’ve always done.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, that makes sense. And when I think of something that’s like, a commodity, like why would I pay for your vitamin D over someone else’s? If it’s just private label and it’s your logo versus someone else’s? Like it’s cheaper for me to get it from Costco? Probably.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, Costco or go to like CVS, there’s like 20 vitamin DS there.

Casey Stanton
But to make it unique is when people start sliding in special ingredients like curcumin

Kevin Urrutia
Curcumin, you like, you sound like you have extra protein. Now you can make it like a protein based supplement and right you have like a different angle now, right? vitamin D with protein. Right? Well, it’s a different formulation.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, like there’s a whole story there. Right, which is like. There’s like I just don’t eat enough protein. And now I can take vitamin D in the morning.

Kevin Urrutia
Yep, exactly. And that’s where you can come up with a nice lead in the life story. Yep.

Casey Stanton
And a differentiator. That’s huge. Okay, so tell me about how you price bottles. I’ve always heard that it’s best to go good, better best. So one bottle at x price two bottles at a lower price three bottles at the lowest price and that’s the best value. Do you find that pricing model to workers?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, for supplements? That’s exactly like yeah case. You know, you know everything about supplements like you’re in probably in the same supplements groups. Like

Casey Stanton
I’m actually not though but I think what’s in Here’s like, this is slow to change information and I love these slow to change principles. Yeah, well what it’s I’m gonna innovate a better way to sell bottles of pills.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. The it’s it’s so it’s this is this is so funny for me too because for soulmates it’s kind of what you said. It’s like, Okay, good, better best, right? And what do you think about traditional e commerce people aren’t doing this, they’re just selling one at a time. Whereas the supplements, you’re trying to get someone to buy like a six month supply all at once. Whereas like eecom, you just kind of buy that one product or like instead of like two or three, but really kind of how we price our bottles. And I’ll tell you guys like for one month, we call it that sample pack. Right? It’s $49. Right? And then we have a three month supply, where we call it the most popular pack that we priced at $39. A bottle. So basically three Oh, 10 bucks off. Yep, got it. And then for the best seller one, which is the six bottles, which is the one if you’re driving traffic, cold traffic is the one that you want to get because it allows you to acquire customer profitably. We’re selling at $29 a bottle. That’s awesome. So really, for us, it’s like the one bottle it’s kind of like, nice, but really we weren’t we were pushing towards that 63 because we want to get them addicted to this like habit of buying and using it right?

Casey Stanton
For sure. So, man, so many questions, and we don’t have a tonne of time here. So all right, I want to know, there there was this beautiful era of selling online when we could do a $1 trial, which is just give me one buck, I’ll send you a bottle. If you don’t like it, let me know. And we’ll cancel it. If you do nothing. Or if you love it, just keep it and we’ll continue shipping you one bottle a month. Yeah, till the end of time. Yeah. You can’t do that anymore. Can you?

Kevin Urrutia
A few things I think you can’t do anymore, because like a lot of that it’s up to things. I think I think it’s still possible to do if you clearly explain what the terms of service are right. But I don’t think we were doing any more because they’re just using traditional cards like Shopify. And that sharp Shopify doesn’t allow that functionality of like kind of like a split payment.

Casey Stanton
Oh, yeah. You have to have like a custom shopping cart. Like a Sam cart or something like

Kevin Urrutia
Sam cart. Yeah, a lot of people just like, hey, Shopify makes it easy, because Shopify has it with fulfilment, all the integrations. But back to what you said, we are, at least for us, we are working with a partner that does have that $1 plus thing and it works really, really well.

Casey Stanton
Oh, very interesting.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, it sounds it does work. It’s crazy. Like, it’s crazy how well it works. And yeah, I think if it’s, if you could do something like that, no, my friend wants to currently do that. But he’s just like, I really don’t want to spend a time developing this thing. And it’s custom coded thing, right?

Casey Stanton
So many developers are listening, build it and reject it.

Kevin Urrutia
Oh, yeah, you can if honestly if like, if you can do this for the supplement space, there’s like these guys are innovating. These guys want to innovate, but they’re just like so tied to these carts like Sam cart Shopify cart. Because remember, a lot of these guys are just like what we said before copywriters that now have gone into that realised, hey, my copy can actually sell let me become product owner, right and offer owner essential appeal call these days like, Hey, I can and then they’re real. They’re trying to use like Shopify, because they’re not technical. So that’s how

Casey Stanton
Yeah, that’s a great point. So many of these tools have just kind of like, like you look at Infusionsoft and how they’ve like simplified down to keep their new software, Kp, it’s like, these companies are going to the widest audience, and we’re losing some of the technical abilities, you need to do one click upsells. So let’s talk about that. Are you doing any one click upsells. And for those who are listening, this is when you call in to QVC. And you order that, you know, George Foreman grill now like great, your order has been processed. I would love to tell you about this other thing. We’ve got hot dog grillers, would you like one of those? They’re upselling you. But if you do it post transactionally. In an e commerce situation, you can get someone just to click the Yes button, and it charges their card. So it’s a great way to increase the average cart value and the lifetime customer value. So I’m wondering what are you seeing that’s working right now? For one click upsells

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, one click upsell is probably like, the best thing that people get in. But right now even if using Shopify, it took Shopify like what two years to even like, implement this where like, people in the info product space, we’re doing this for years, which is so interesting. But yes, one click upsell we use for Shopify, but something that people are selling and how we’re selling it is the best thing is kind of wasted before, at least for supplements. What we seen work well is just selling like a super sized bundle of the thing you’re doing. Let’s say you purchase three, sell three more saying hey, you’ve already purchased three, hey, well, we’re gonna get three more even steeper discount. And the reason why that works really well is because you’ve already convinced them that first time to buy the product. So now it’s like an easier say like, Oh yeah, I kind of want more of it right? Like this getting more of it is still we find it to be takes about 30% uptake rate you can sell for example, you could still sell another product you might have, but the uptake rate is only between for us at least 10% and now on that new upsell page. You need to sell them again with even either a copy again or within a video.

Casey Stanton
Absolutely, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so we’ve got the processing here. Makes sense. And then do you think a great way to start with supplement sales is just through Shopify, knowing that there are limitations to the cart?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, I would still do Shopify. You Shopify, just because it allows you to check out real easy. And also people trust Shopify, and you get all the PayPal, you don’t like the instant payments, etc.

Casey Stanton
On a shipping thing at the end, where your order is…

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, all that stuff you don’t want to be thinking about in the beginning. Because remember, in the beginning, you’re what you’re doing is you want to test those your offer work. And again, most important, because your copy work, can you actually sell something to sell the story? And then, like, once you start getting maybe two, three k a day in sales, then that’s when I would that’s usually when I say people like okay, I can see the limits, I can see the limitations on Shopify, because I don’t want to do one upsell. Now I want to do like four upsells and Shopify does allow me to do that. Right.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, great point. Great point. There was a as far as supplements are concerned, one that I thought that was really really effective, that I feel like they kind of bounced out at the same time. Like they just kind of appeared in the market the same time was like, keeps and for hims.com. Oh, yep. And they’re both for like,

Kevin Urrutia
My friend started keeps. It’s so funny.

Casey Stanton
No way. I’ve been a customer of keeps for, I don’t know, two and a half years.

Kevin Urrutia
We so quick story. Like we were both in the same, like, entrepreneurs accelerator in New York City for startups

Casey Stanton
And it’s such a simple business, because all that they’re doing is it’s a web interface, where you take a photo of your head, and you pull your hair back and show like the crown of your head and your hairline. And it submits it to a doctor that’s in your state. It’s a tele doc that doc reviews it, they send back and it says, Hey, it looks like you could use this supplement, they then give you a prescription for finasteride. And if you pay for it, they send it to you at a price that is dramatically cheaper than ever. Yeah, yeah, I was paying like $100 a month locally at my pharmacy and now I get it for 75 a quarter shipped. I mean it’s it’s a wild difference.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. And like same same thing before to like when so companies that keeps them for him or possible because the patents expired. So that’s a great way if you want to do something company look at patents expired for the sort of like brands like and then that’s another way to sort of start your own something.

Casey Stanton
Oh, interesting for hims is definitely got like a Viagra alternative.

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah, exactly. Why? Because the patent expired.

Casey Stanton
Oh, I didn’t know that.

Kevin Urrutia
That’s why, like you probably saw all of a sudden, like, Whoa, how come like there’s all these companies spring up? It’s because of that. Yeah.

Casey Stanton
Yeah. Oh, interesting. And what I love about those companies, too, is like, stupid, simple. Yeah, your target is like men of a certain age range. Maybe with a certain income, right? Not and then they just say like, hey, did your dad lose his hair? Did your granddad lose his hair? You’re probably gonna lose your hair to buy the supplement. And just like ship. It’s like so clear and effective. So

Kevin Urrutia
Clear. It’s like the thing. It’s like, losing your hair, like most men go to that issue. So now it’s about selling the products on the much cheaper price. Yeah.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, I love that. Hi, this has been really helpful. So I want to recap real quick.

Kevin Urrutia
My learning feeling there’s so much more we can talk about, like, Oh my gosh, there’s so much like, I’m like, Oh my god, there’s so much I could say well, like I’m like, we I know. We have to go.

Casey Stanton
All right, taking a note there. So all right. So some major things that I heard from you. If you want to sell something like a supplement or just kind of anything online, get on Clickbank or get on another site like it like jvzoo Yep. And figure out what what offers are selling. And, like, stop listening to what people are telling you a selling because honestly, no one’s telling you what they’re selling. I have been to masterminds and I’m sure you have to Kevin, where you’ll meet someone who’s got who’s like super successful on Amazon. Like what do you sell now? Like? That’s like b2c stuff.

Kevin Urrutia
The best people are never tell you trust me. Like I always thought the people on time You understand? Yeah.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, I did. Yeah. You just, it’s just silent. Yeah. So go look and Clickbank scrape because it’s a, it’s a, it’s a foundational, like, marketplace, where they’ll show you conversion rates of sales letters and things like that. And you can go see what’s actually converting. That’s, that’s a killer idea. The next thing that I’m taking away here is self continuity. Because if you can make one sale, it might as well keep paying you for a long time. If you have any kind of business, even if you have a service based business. So with continuity. Kevin, as you built your Facebook ad company, you can sell continuity, right? You have contracts. What’s your shortest contract term?

Kevin Urrutia
Shortest contract term process. Six months?

Casey Stanton
So it’s a six month sale. Yep. It’s the same amount of effort to make a one month sales a six month sale, right?

Kevin Urrutia
Yep. And then now you both know that you’re committed to this thing we used to do one month and it’s like, Alright, nevermind. It’s like it’s a mental commitment to totally.

Casey Stanton
Yeah. Awesome. So continuity is huge. I think Like the offer component here, that people wanting a fast solution is big. Right? People don’t want necessarily the best as much as they want the solution immediately. Yeah. And you could be a little more expensive if you can offer the solution faster. And that’s like, where my mind goes is we’ll charge a higher price and provide a better experience. Right, solve it fast. I work with the company, the exercise coach, and we’ve got 100 locations for this fitness franchise. And we’re effective, our USP is to 20 minute workouts a week. It’s certainly not the cheapest workout, right? If you want the cheapest workout, go on YouTube and watch some videos. Yeah. But if you want the fastest, most effective, like, that’s what we’ve got. So fast, I think is really big. I loved your note here about checking expiring patents, like anyone can go sell some sawdust in a pill bottle, right and like probably have some some level of success with it. But if you want to have some significant success, check out patents that are expiring and see if you can produce a supplement that solves that same problem and brand it with a story and have it on continuity and sell it on Shopify and use long copy. And yeah, like make it happen. Let me just ask you one last question before we split, which is what’s an acceptable cost per acquisition of a new customer and a supplement business?

Kevin Urrutia
So for us, at least, like I said, for our product cost 49 bucks, we’re happy paying $49 to acquire that customer. That way we can come and bring them back. That’s kind of how we think about it.

Casey Stanton
So you’re willing to break even on the sale of a single bottle?

Kevin Urrutia
Yep, that’s exactly what we think about it. Yep.

Casey Stanton
So many people are afraid to do that. And I think at some level, you can go in the negative if you had an offer that could scale, right?

Kevin Urrutia
Yeah. If you ever scale and you know, your continuity is working really well. And at least for us, once we also build up the back end with like more info product goods, like PDFs or books or books, right. That’s the way we think about it too

Casey Stanton
Much great. Just a kind of, what do you have a PDF for a cookbook or whatever, those things are effectively free to deliver to someone. So anything that’s paid to you is any profit? Exactly. Dude, this has been huge. I’ve learned a lot I honestly, I feel like I have I’ve had questions that I’ve had for a couple years now that just got answered really effectively. So thank you for that. And if people want to like check you out and see what you’re doing, they can head over to your Facebook, lead generation company, which is https://voymedia.com, is that right?

Kevin Urrutia
Yep, that’s correct.

Casey Stanton
Awesome. Kevin, thishas been great. Thank you so much for being on.

Kevin Urrutia
Thank you so much for having me, Casey.