YPMS Episode 1: Strategic Relationships, How to Network and Building Business Relationships with copywriter Abbey Woodcock

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Freelance Co-Op
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Show Notes

Casey Stanton
You’re listening to Your Perfect Marketing Strategy, the only podcast to teach you what marketing tactics are working right now, how to know which tactics are right for your business, and the immediate steps you can take to deploy those tactics to grow your business today. Hey, it’s your host, Casey Stanton with CMOx, the fractional Chief Marketing Officer company. And I’m here with my friend, Abbey Woodcock. Hey, Abbey.

Abbey Woodcock
Hello, how are you?

Casey Stanton
Hey, alright. So Abbey, you and I met a couple years ago. I think we first got together at Brian Kurtz Titans masterminds there, right.

Abbey Woodcock
Yes, I think so.

Casey Stanton
Yeah. And then I got to see you again at Kevin Rogers copy chief live. And you kind of like have, as I’ve known you, you’ve existed in the copywriter space, right.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that’s where we were we originally connected and in that space.

Casey Stanton
So just for listeners, what’s the distinction between content writing and copywriting? And why is copywriting so damn expensive?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah. So I like to read explain the difference is copy is something that you need somebody to take action. So content is something that’s going to either educate or inform, build brand awareness, that kind of thing. And it’s very important. Everybody who’s like, oh, you’re saying copy is more important? Definitely not. It’s just different goals. And copywriting is, once they’re educated, informed, all that kind of stuff, what do you want them to do, and that’s where you need a copywriter. And the difference is, you need to be a good writer, but you also need to understand sales principles, behavioral psychology strategies, that kind of thing. And so that’s why it’s more expensive because it’s kind of a combination of writing and sales, where content writing, you’re gonna have a content writer that doesn’t really understand those sales principles that can do really well for your company. So depending on what you want the copywriter to do, if you want them to make a sale, that’s going to be the most expensive copywriter probably that you hire. If you want them to get somebody to opt in or click. It might be a little bit less expensive. So the closer To the money, the more expensive it is usually.

Casey Stanton
Okay, that makes sense. So I’m reminded of the phrase that marketing is salesmanship multiplied. Yeah. Right. So like you can have on page copy, you can have like a brochure as a website and brochures are very effective at getting people to take out their wallets and pay for things. But a salesperson is and a copywriter is effectively multiplied salesperson.

Abbey Woodcock
Absolutely. Right on their behalf.

Casey Stanton
And you studied with some of the greats, right?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, so I’ve been really lucky. Early on, I got a lot of great clients in the internet marketing space. So my first big client was for meat safety. So he kind of taught me the ropes about internet marketing and then as I got into really the Brian Kurtz world, I studied with Harrison propolis who’s like one of the oh geez of copywriting. And, you know, a lot of those other kind of, you know, the public publisher worlds of copy, which really taught me a lot about direct response principles specifically and So combining those kind of two backgrounds it’s been really useful for me

Casey Stanton
and for the listener so remain he’s got the program I will teach you to be rich and he’s got the rest of it is just like financial literacy and education is that right?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah. And and so his whole thing is creating a rich life. So it’s financial literacy and then also like, how to get a job on the side and how to negotiate your salary and really anything in your life that is about money. He’s, he’s got programs on that. So yeah, awesome. And then Paris is kind of like an underground copywriter. Most people haven’t heard of them. And he writes for your rights, but predominantly in the health space held space. Yeah, he does some financial copy sometimes. But yeah, his his claim to fame is in the health space. And, yeah, he’s worked with all the big publishers and he is one of those rare people that doesn’t like to get out in front of the camera or be on social or like it’s really even difficult to find an email address for him and so on. He actually study with him. It’s like the secret society and he has to approach you. So like he comes out of the bushes one day when you’re on your morning round and tells you that that you’re hired. So that’s kind of how it went for me.

Casey Stanton
Right? He’s a great guy. Yeah. And this copy that you’re talking about is like, it’s the copy that people who are uninitiated don’t understand, which is the long copy. So Paris is a champion of writing long enough to get the point across, right? That might be like, a 10 page sales letter or a 20 page sales letter or a package that gets mailed to someone that’s multiple pages with Yeah, all sorts of like different direct response elements inside. So as a result, have you written that kind of length before?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, so yeah, number one under Paris. We had a hand copy, like million of those things. But yes, I don’t love writing the stuff that goes in the mail. It’s, it has to be very aggressive and That’s just not kind of my style of writing. But I did a lot of that with Paris and when I was kind of in that world, and they write things called mega logs, which are basically magazines that are all driven to make a sale at the end so it’ll be have 10 articles in quotes in the in the magazine and it’ll all be like driving you towards maybe a supplement or, you know, financial advice or something. And all these other articles support it. So you’re writing informative articles while driving people to sail which is kind of a crazy, like, difficult task.

Casey Stanton
Right? You’re taking someone who to go back to Eugene Schwartz says terms like their solution unaware, potentially, they might not even know that they have a problem. And then you identify that they have a problem. You tell them that there’s a solution and that the solution needs to be this and not that and that you can present the solution and then you take away all the risk and Money Back Guarantee and discounts in social proof and then ask them for the sale. And before they receive that mail. Or that that offer, they didn’t even know they had a problem. By the end of it, they have such a painful problem that if they don’t solve it, they won’t be able to sleep. Right?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, exactly. And so the target for a lot of those are things like joint pain or back pain or the kind of things that like, older people are all going to have and it’s something that they’ve just accepted and then you just kind of the first part of it is digging in and saying like, no, this isn’t acceptable, you should be able to go on a hike at at and like, really all the stuff that they’re missing out on. And then you go into like, Okay, well, you’ve maybe you’ve talked to your doctor about it, and maybe you take Tylenol every day, and that’s not enough. And this is why this is the secret problem that’s actually causing the problem that you didn’t even know existed and it’s some kind of obscure medical, something rather than this this supplemental solve. So it’s, it’s a lot of fun. It’s like really like, it’s challenging at every step. Because you have to understand the problem. You have to understand the medical stuff behind it. You have to understand what the supplement is. is different than all the other ones, all while fitting into FDA regulations not claiming that we’re solving any curing any disease. So it’s a it’s a fun challenge, which is again why it’s so expensive.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, that makes sense. And again, copywriters that push you towards a sale are going to be the most expensive that makes a lot of sense. Just like you would hire the best salesperson you could to close a sale, and you can hire a junior salesperson to open the sale, which might be to get the lead or get the opt in.

Abbey Woodcock
Exactly.

Casey Stanton
Okay, great. So you have all this experience in copywriting, but you’re not doing copywriting professionally anymore. Tell me about what you’re doing right now.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, so a few years ago, I started realizing that the business and system side of my freelancing copy business was not great. I would do things like Miss deadlines. I would forget to invoice clients. I would I didn’t have a great contract, kind of all these these things that could that come into play when you’re running a business. So I set out to solve them and I did and I got really good at that. And my colleagues in the copywriting world said, How can you can like I’m having these same problems can you help me? And so I started coaching copywriters, specifically on the business side of copy how to program aptly named the business of coffee, and started loving the coaching process and realizing that through relationships that I had, and through authority that I’d built in the industry, I had a real opportunity to kind of not be beholden to client work copy, like, as we’ve talked about a little bit is a ton of work ton of mental bandwidth. And I realized that the opportunity to coach freelancers to do what I had done will kind of serve two purposes. Number one, I had a lot of clients still asking me to do work and I could kind of build up a network of copywriters that could help with that. And the other thing was, you know, creating these coaching programs and running events and workshops Which I really love to do. So that’s what I’m doing now through the freelance Co Op, which now as of a year ago is also a physical space in upstate New York where I live. So yeah, that’s, that’s the life now. Awesome.

Casey Stanton
Awesome. So one of the things that we’re gonna talk about today is strategic relationships. And I think this is really interesting, because this is what I feel like I know you for you invited me to your place for a cocktail party. I don’t know two years ago, and I was living in an RV which you’re in right now. Yeah. And I was like in Austin, Texas, and wasn’t gonna be able to make it up to upstate New York. But talk to me about strategic relationships and why that’s a marketing tactic. Why is that? Why is it a tactic to grow a business? I mean, when we think of tactics, we typically think of Facebook ads or Google ads.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah. So especially if you wanting, you know, high level relationships, whether it’s affiliates or with me with copywriting, like we’ve mentioned copywriting is really expensive. So if I couldn’t get somebody to hire me for a $40,000 project from a Facebook ad, I mean, it could, but it would take a long time. And there’s all these thousand dollars in ad spend. Yeah, exactly. It’s so it’s just not an it’s just not a good efficient way to get high level clients I’ve found and I’m sure there’s somebody probably that’ll be on your podcast that’ll refute that and say that they can get $10,000 clients and $20,000 clients from Facebook ads, which is awesome. But I also don’t just really don’t enjoy that process. And so when you’re thinking of hiring somebody for a key role in your company, somebody that you’re going to pay 20,000 $40,000 things for what’s the first thing you do, the first thing you do is not a Google search. The first thing you do is ask your friends and say, Hey, do you know anybody that’s a great copywriter. Do you know anybody that’s a great cmo Do you know like all these different things that we’re looking for? You’re going to be asking your friends and so what are your friends gonna say? Friends will say, Oh, you know, actually, I met this person last week who seems really cool. You know, we hung out and went to a cocktail party at her house. I’ve never worked with her, but she seems really awesome. You should talk to her. Those are the kinds of ways that people are finding these high level people and even coaches. You know, when copywriters or freelancers are looking for coaches, a lot of my clients still come from, hey, I was having this conversation and your name came up and I was curious what you’re doing or they find me through Google because they talked to somebody. And so making relationships with people is the number one thing in my business when I was writing copy it was most of my business came from referrals and from meeting people and having conversations at bars. And now even in my business, even though I am doing things like running Facebook ads, my best clients and my best customers and the best relationships and affiliates are all coming from, like actual human relationships, not online relationships.

Casey Stanton
Okay, I like that a lot. And I think that’s true, I can think back to one of the first marketing events I went to, and like how I still keep in contact with those people, what 10 or 10 or 11 years later, and like how that’s helped me know, people. But what’s difficult is I can scale a Facebook ad campaign by doubling the budget. I can scale, like direct mail catalog by just getting more folks to mail it to. It’s really difficult if your business is based on word of mouth to scale word of mouth. So knowing that there’s a limitation that like scale is difficult. How do you leverage your audience in a way that feels authentic, that doesn’t ask aggressively for like a referral, but, you know, asks for referral.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah. So there’s a number of ways actually that you can scale relationships and actually some of the stuff I know that you we talked about a couple years ago when you came on my training, about things that I know that you do things Like following up and staying in touch with you. So every time I go to an event, I come home with, you know, 10, maybe 10 new people that I met that I hadn’t had a relationship with before. Now what most people do is say, Oh, that’s cool, I met that person. Let me like, list them in my spreadsheet of contacts or pile of business cards, or whatever it is that you have. What I do, and what I know that you do, is every time I get those 10 people, now they go into a rotation of these are people that I want to follow up with, and I want to talk to you and I want to continue to talk to you and I want to invite cocktail parties at my house. And I want to, you know, send articles to or invite on my podcasts or different things. And that’s how you kind of leverage that and every time it becomes kind of the snowball of growth, because each one of those people knows three or four people and so is it scaling in the same way that Facebook ads are maybe not but you know, I can say compared today compared to two years ago, I have an exponentially larger network than I did before. All based on the fact that I’m continuing to follow up with people that I met at an event 10 years ago and people that I met at the last event that I went to, and kind of being really strategic about following up with them and doing this and not a, if you Google, like networking scripts and emails, you’re gonna get the like, hey, it was amazing to connect last week, we should really hop on a call. If somebody ever sends me an email after an event, like we should hop on a call and follow up on our conversation. I’m like, why, like,

Casey Stanton
spam button just like,

Abbey Woodcock
but there’s a lot of ways I mean, we’ve kept you know, we met whatever it was, I don’t know, five years ago, probably. And we’ve kept in touch just funny things that like, we had a conversation about they remind us of each other or like inviting each other to things or like when I know that you’re in, you know, we both travel around if we see we’re in the same city, you know, those kind of things. And that’s all strategic and like there’s a reason I’m on this podcast. It’s not you know, the Because you googled and found the person that had the best marketing strategy, it’s because we had a relationship.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, that’s a great point. And, and one thing that I think about is all the shitty business people I’ve met over the years, and how, at the beginning of my career, I wanted to network with them. And I thought that there was something there. And the more time I spend in business, the more I realized that I can pick and choose those people. So I’m not following up with people because I want business from them. I’m following up with them because I like them. I think they’re interesting people. Not necessarily because I think I’ll ever do business with them again, just like I like them as people. It’s like my social circle. And as a result, the follow ups feel authentic and they don’t feel forced.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, I agree with you. 100%. And so I think that that’s where people make a big mistake is because they think of like, you know, you look at the attendees of an event and you say, oh, that guy, he’s the most successful he’s a billionaire. I’m gonna let Make sure that I network with him and I’m gonna continue to follow up. Well, if that’s how you approach it, number one, your approach is going to feel real sleazy and weird. And you’re going to go up to them and like they’re gonna be standing there and like, what do you want to talk about? And the second thing is, you’re not gonna have any reason to follow up or any like, it’s, it like puts the relationship on shaky ground where if you just, if you’re at an event and you connect with somebody, I really believe that if you connect with somebody that you have a genuine like human connection with, that stuff’s going to pay off. And can I say you’re going to get a sale from every single one of those No, like, I think maybe you work together on a project once, but it’s not like you know, there was a ton of money exchanged but I know that my relationship with you because it was founded on the fact that I enjoy talking to enjoy hanging out with you that it’s paid off over the years because I enjoy also following up with you. I enjoy our text messages and I have a lot of people in my circle that are like that because it’s just really enjoyable to have those conversations and then it becomes really enjoyable to work together. And when you get referrals from them, they’re way more authentic because you can I like I could honestly say, when I refer somebody to you like, Casey’s amazing, like, I love chatting with him, he’s awesome to work with, like, he’s gonna be just amazing for your business. And I can say that and believe that authentically, rather than like, Oh, yeah, I met him at an event seems like a smart guy, you know, like,

Casey Stanton
right, right. And then when you do that last part, I met someone at an event seemed like a smart person. Like it puts your reputation at risk. He had to like, do this takeaway. He’d be like, yeah, meet Abbey. I kind of don’t know where I don’t know. She seems cool. Like she was cool shoes, but like, you know, like you’re on your own. Versus like, over the years I have different copywriters in my life, and I know when to work with them, right? So if I’m going to work with someone in the technical space, like I need someone that’s a little more technical. If I want to work for someone in the health space, I need someone who’s an expert in health or who has done winning things and health before and so on. I think we’re kind of getting over the objection of, it’s too hard to make these connections. It’s feels weird to like network. But let’s dig in that a little bit more. When you go to an event, where do you spend your time? Yeah. So

Abbey Woodcock
the other thing that people do wrong is I think, number one, never ever, ever stand in the speaker’s line ever.

Casey Stanton
The worst, just like just like a photo, just to be like, Hey, your speech was great. And they just like, Okay, next,

Abbey Woodcock
I watch these. And I’ve now been because I speak on stages. Now, I’ve been like the recipient of the line. So when you get off of stage, so if you’re speaking at an event, no matter how experienced the speaker, you’re, you’re like, full of nerves. You’re like trying to get your talk figured out. Whatever you get on stage, you do your talk, it goes well, you get off stage, you’re like, yes. Okay. Now I just need like a drink and I need to go to the bathroom and I need to sit for a few minutes. And then you get like, 30 people in line and you’re like, Okay, let me get through this line. If they’re nice people, they’re going to be polite, and they’re gonna say, Oh, yeah, great to meet you. Okay, sure. Your business card, well, whatever, but you’re not gonna make any connections there because the speaker just has the motivation to get out of there.

Casey Stanton
You are not giving your phone number out in the speaker line.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, no, no, you’re not, you shouldn’t even be standing in the speakers. So one trick that I do if you want to connect with speakers is talking to them before their talk after their talk. Everybody wants to talk to them. But if you know that, like, so and so, you know, Casey Stanton is going to be talking this afternoon and I’m like, Oh, I really want to connect with him. I’m going to connect with him in the morning and say, I’m really looking forward to your talk. But any meals, any meals that there are, I’m doing it, I’m in the hallways, I’m at the bar until they kick me out of the bar. Those are the places that you’re making those real connections and people get so scared of small talk and they’re like, small talk so stupid, like I would just want to get to business. Small Talk is such a valuable psychological tool because it’s how you suss out like is this person, a safe person is this person. somebody that’s interesting is this person, somebody Like I can have a conversation with that I would feel good about working with, like all those conversation all that is happening in your brain while you’re talking about the weather or the speakers or whatever it is that you’re talking about. And so it’s not difficult. It’s just having normal human conversations with people in work will come up people. When do I pitch my thing? Like it don’t like eventually? Yeah.

Casey Stanton
I don’t want to hear it. No one wants to hear it.

Abbey Woodcock
Nobody wants to hear it at 10 o’clock in the bar after sitting in a conference all day. Like, Hey, I wanted to let you know I’m a copywriter and I know that you’ve got a lot of great things going on. And please keep in mind, they’re like, Okay, let

Casey Stanton
me let me tell you about my course.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, exactly. Oh, dude. Eventually that’s that’s gonna come up. If you talk to somebody for an hour at a bar at a business conference. Like Of course, what’s gonna happen is they’re gonna be like, oh, what do you do? It’s like, Oh, I’m a copywriter. Oh, that’s kind of cool. What kind of copy of you right and then they’re asking questions just as a curious human not as a like in eventually business will happen. Maybe not there at that event, but A couple weeks, a couple months, a couple years down the road. You know, if you continue to follow up, that’s where things are gonna happen. And that has been the foundation that has built all of my business is having drinks at bars and talking to humans.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I think back to an event I went to Peter Diamandis is abundance 360. And I was sitting in the back and Astro teller sat next to me as he was prepping the slides to go on. And I had the opportunity to have a one on one conversation with like, the guy who’s leading the moonshot. I don’t know department or initiative at Google. The dude is a significant person. And the moment he spoke, he was the hottest guy in the room. Everyone wanted to talk to him. But because I knew what he looked like, I had an opportunity to chat with him. Now that chat didn’t really go anywhere, but it’s like still an opportunity and it’s not like you’re gonna hit 100% of the balls that are thrown at you. So that was an opportunity to connect. No real connection was made. That’s fine. Next time I see him I could say hey, We saw each other back here, and I can continue that conversation without feeling pushy.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah. And I think of it like kind of planting a garden like playing a bunch of seeds, some of them are going to grow into like amazing plants, some of them aren’t going to grow at all. Some of them are gonna like, be kind of weak plants that maybe you have to prop up a little bit like, it works the same way with relationships. So it’s like planting seeds and the more that you plant, the better that you’re going to be. I had a really similar experience at Brian Curtis actually first Titans event. I wanted to meet Ryan Lee. I’d followed him for a while he’s, he’s now he has a food company does like energy bars. I don’t know what he calls them, but like health bars and but at the time, he was teaching membership sites and I knew that I wanted to learn membership sites. And he had said from the stage that he had was short on time and he was on a panel he was only going to be on the panel for halfway because he had to get out of there because he had dinner with his wife or something. So As he’s walking out when he left, I actually had to use the restroom at the time. I walked out in the hallway and I just saw people like mobbing him as he’s trying to leave and like giving business cards and that dinner. Like he just said that he was like, on his way out, and I didn’t get a chance to connect with him then. Well, I wrote an article later about that experience and how bad that is networking, like somebody’s trying to leave, and you’re like shoving your business card down their throat. Well, actually, from that article, Ryan Lee was like, Oh, my gosh, actually, like your name came up at the conference, you were somebody that I wanted to connect to, like, thanks for writing the article. That was exactly the situation I threw away all those business cards that I got at the event, but we should connect and now Ryan Lee and I are friends. Like I’ve taught him his program. He’s taught my program, we run into each other at events all the time. And that all just came from, like being human and not trying to use him as, like a business outcome, you know?

Casey Stanton
Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s really great. Okay, so one of the things you mentioned is that you spend time I’m at the bars, I think the bar is a very different place than in the room. And I hate to say like, events aren’t valuable, like the content is invaluable, but like sometimes speakers giving talks, our speakers given talks that are on YouTube. And you can watch that later. But what you can do later is sit with everyone in the bar or sit in the waiting room or just kind of like hanging out in the lobby, right?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, for sure. And yeah, usually at events, there’s three or four speakers, and they’re usually friends that I would like, definitely want to see. And I’m like, oh, let me see how they do. And the rest of them I’m yeah, I’m exactly right. I’m having drinks at the bar. I’m sitting in a lobby, I’m hanging out with people that are in the hallway that are like exhausted from everything, on having meetings with people that I already know, that are at the events. There’s a whole bunch of you know, that’s where the relationships are happening. There’s some events that I’m in the room the whole time. Those are not networking events. Those are different kinds of events. You know, those might be an educational event where we’re talking about something Super tactical that I want to learn about. That’s gonna be a totally different environment than being out at the bar. But people I think are trying to, like, have these conversations on like the five minute breaks and like, oh, let me run across the room and like, connect with that person really quick. Like, those are not how meaningful relationships are gonna happen. meaningful relationships are happening at 10 o’clock in the bar when everybody’s guard is down, and everybody’s relaxing, and everybody’s like, open to really having those connections.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, that’s great. One of the things that I’ve done in the past is if I go to an event, I will call ahead to a restaurant and I will just reserve a table for like six or eight people and have no idea who’s going to be invited and know that it costs me nothing to cancel that reservation. Yep. But if I have that reservation, then I’m the guy who just booked this reservation at a nice restaurant. And I’m not saying that you have to like buy everyone a meal, right? Do you find that you need to like buy people’s stuff to like I respect.

Abbey Woodcock
So one thing and I’ve actually spoken on this before, one thing when it comes to meals is at the end of the day, Event we’ve all had that experience where somebody’s like, should we go to dinner? Yeah, let’s go to dinner. Where do you want to go? I don’t know. Let me Yelp some. I’m not sure. Do you like Thai? No, not really. Let’s do like, you’re having this whole thing. The the rock star in the room is the person that comes up and is like, Hey, guys, I have a reservation for eight like right down the street. Like it’s Thai place. Do you guys want to go? I have three more slots. People are like, sweet, even if they don’t like Thai they’re like, yes. Okay. And nobody really expects that you’re paying for it. Like they’re, they expect to pay for their own dinner sometimes if you have a particularly great dinner like I’ll pay for the meal once in a while. But for the most part, like everybody kind of understands they’re gonna pay for their own meal. I try to limit it to no more than eight people and especially at conferences, you end up with like 20 people or like, Let’s all go together. Like that’s a nightmare for so many reasons. But but having a small dinner Yeah, and I that I’ve done that a bunch of times where I I connected with some Somebody wants at an event that I knew I wanted to talk to. And I was like, I know they’re friends with that person. So I’m going to invite the other person to dinner and then say, Oh, I’m going to dinner with this other person. Didn’t know if you wanted to go along. Well, now they feel like okay, at least I’m going to know somebody at dinner. And they came with us to dinner and made a connection that way. So there’s just that is such a super, super valuable thing to do is just to be the guy that like has a plan.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. I think another thing to consider here is just like, if you want to if you want to ultimately have a relationship with the person, like this higher status person in the room, find their spouse, find their business partner, you know, find the assistant find those people kind of like work that relationship. Have you found that to be successful?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, so I was actually talking to a friend, Chris orange koski who we have a program together Actually, he was saying that’s how he met Gary Pennsylvania, Gary events. Pennsylvania is like, universally known as the best living color. Right right now. And the top kind of copy, right? Yeah, he’s incredible. And he’s also he doesn’t speak and he hardly ever goes to events. And so he’s like one of those people really difficult to connect with. My friend said, he sat next to Gary’s wife at an event. About a year ago, I ended up talking and they like, made friends, and they got invited to like, go out with them and do all this stuff. So that definitely works. Again, all these I want to like put a caveat on all these. All these only work if you’re like being a real person, like connect with if you’re connecting with the spouse, or the assistant or the friend or whatever, you have to actually connect with that person, like, they’re gonna sniff it out, especially if they’re their spouses, like a higher status person, they’re gonna sniff out that you’re trying to connect to them, like if you’re being inauthentic because that probably happens to them all the time. And so, just being real and like genuinely wanting to have a real Because that person will be really valuable. But all these like kind of tactics that we’re talking about, the underneath thing is like, be a real person and really have an investment in a friendship in a relationship, like our relationship. You know, we have obviously business relationship, but we have a friendship first, and that’s where it started. And that has to start that way, or it’s not gonna work.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, for sure. And again, like, I think the longer people spend in business, the more they can choose to do business with their friends. Yeah, exactly. Because it’s not because they get a kickback or anything, but because their friends are the best because they have the best friends. Right? Yeah. You work to build. Yeah, I think that that authenticity is really important. And one way that I’ve been able to create an authentic relationship that’s kind of like abnormal is through gifting. So have you done any gifting to get people’s attention?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, I love gifting. I love it, doesn’t it? People always are like, how much money are you spending that much? Like I think you had said at one of the first events, I think Tell you and I was like, what a good idea. It’s like when you have a drink, like mailing somebody the receipt of the drink and saying like, you know, you’re at the bar, you’re having a drink anyway, they’re like, oh, wish you were here, like had a drink for you and like something that costs the cost of a stamp. You know, literally, when you buy yourself at a bar, like at the hotel, just like having a drink after an event. You write on the receipt and you mail it to a friend of yours. Yeah. And that was your idea. And I was like, what a smart idea. Just getting physical things in the mail. I have hung up every card that I’ve gotten from friends and business and clients, like they’re hanging up in my office. I’m not hanging up emails that people are sending me. And you know, and I was on a podcast with our mutual friend, Renee Warren. And she sent me a like a little pair of custom earrings and for coming on the podcast and I don’t know how much they cost her 10 bucks maybe like, and she sent them to me and I was just like, what a cute like, I’ve been on hundreds of podcasts and just like getting a little bit of acknowledgment in the mail like really meant a lot And I’m like, that’s going to like be something that I remember. And every time you

Casey Stanton
put those earrings on you think of her Yeah, like fondly, right?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, exactly. And anytime her name comes up, I’m like, Oh, yeah, she sent me that she sent me that thing. Referrals is another one. I had a friend of mine I referred her a quite a high level client. I have a friend that’s a ghostwriter. This person wanted to write a book. It was like a probably a $10,000 client for her. I’m not sure. But she sent me a really nice bottle of whiskey and just said thanks for the referral. I was just like, wow, like that was just really a nice gesture. That’s going to now make me every time somebody needs a ghostwriter. I’m going to think of that person because they’re the like, for what they spent 50 bucks on a bottle of whiskey to send to me for a $10,000 project. And, you know, it’s just those kind of things and so I try to once a month I’m like sitting down like I’m sending them out to my best clients little gifts, I’m sending cards to my Friends when I think of them when I see a postcard that makes me think of one of my friends. I’m sending it out like just little stuff that makes people say like, Oh, you know what? Abbey’s thinking of me and that that’s the stuff they’re gonna hang up on their Wall, their office, they’re not going to remember that. Oh, yeah, she sent me a Facebook message and said, Thank you, you know?

Casey Stanton
Yeah, I think that’s great. And don’t send money right? You would never like if you just closed a big client, you would never just like pay off a friend is a thank you. gift card to Barnes and Noble or something. It’s like not a good way to say things.

Abbey Woodcock
Not at all. No. The only gift card that I’ve ever done is at the when I’m so I did online launches for a while for coffee, which is like a huge like three month projects. The end of it is very stressful. And what I would do is send everybody on the team, a gift card to Starbucks and just say, Hey, we can’t be together for the last day of the launch. I know it’s super stressful. So have a coffee on me. That’s the only gift card I’ve ever sent out. Otherwise, like gift cards feel like it’s like a cop out. You’re like, oh,

Casey Stanton
little cop out. It’s forgettable too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Abbey, yeah, she sent me a $5 gift card. It’s cheap. Yeah. So a couple quick things that I’ve done in the past that have been successful as I was working with someone then she was finding a lot of fire. A lot of things are blowing up. So I went on eBay and I bought her like a Chicago Fire Department. helmet. Right. I totally like put this on like when you’re fighting fires, like now she has this huge helmet she can’t get rid of it’s like not you can’t throw that away.

Abbey Woodcock
She’s got a mountain in her office, I bet.

Casey Stanton
Right? Exactly. Every time she sees that damn helmet, she’ll think Give me another one was I heard from Brian Kurtz when he was doing the Titans master titans of direct response so big event where he brought in all the top copywriters. Were you there for that? Yeah, it was. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Like we missed each other then.

Abbey Woodcock
I think we might after that. So yeah.

Casey Stanton
So at that event, well, before that event, one of the speakers Joe Polish was was going and he was speaking and Joe when the last minute or something and wasn’t able to get a room in the hotel. So he has Brian the host if he could stay in his room for a night, while like because it’s Friday night, it’s booked Saturday night it was free or something. He could get her up Saturday. So I went on Fiverr and I got a guy to do an illustration of Joe and Brian in a bathtub together. It’s like a bubble bath is

Abbey Woodcock
made the rounds and continues

Casey Stanton
to when those two guys are together. When Brian speaks at Joe’s 25 k events. he’ll pull the image up as like kind of a joke because like, it’s the only asset in his life like that. That’s just like so funny. And then maybe they say my name like it’s a simple thing and it cost me 50 bucks and took me like no time to do doing caricatures of people on Fiverr is like inexpensive you mail it to them. A friend of mine yesterday. His name is Bill. He was on the podcast earlier. He sent me a balaclava like for COVID but It’s Bill clava. It’s his lower face, mouth and beard. It’s like what am I gonna do with that thing? I don’t know. But it’s pretty funny to have. I think thinking a typically allows people to remember you. And one last example that was bad was I met a guy at an event and he was in like the precious commodities trading kind of forex market. And he had a silver coin. It was about the size of a nickel, and it was printed with his information on it like it was his business card. And it was cool until I lost it, because it was a nickel. You know? It would it cost him to produce at $25 I don’t even remember who he was all I remember was that like, he was like, foolish enough to give me a silver nickel that I just don’t even know what he expected me to do with it.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, well, you’re not gonna that’s not gonna be something you’re gonna hang in your office. You’re gonna throw that in your, your duster or you’re gonna throw it in your wallet and then accidentally spend it or

Casey Stanton
Yeah, no Good, but then again, like a bottle of whiskey or earrings or something like that. I think consumables are one thing and then something that can last a little bit longer. It depends on your market. It depends on the relationship. But if you can do something that lasts for a long time, probably makes more sense. Do you think?

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, definitely the, the earrings are gonna be like, they’re gonna be in my jewelry box forever. Like, there’s two years down the road. I grabbed those earrings and I put them on I’m like, Oh, yeah, wonder what were they soon I should like, shoot her an email or say hi to her or whatever. And those are the kinds of things that like just little things and that comes out of relationships to like, you know, your friends and you know what they’re going to enjoy and you know, like, you know, being personal about it and thinking like what is something that’s going to make them laugh or make them enjoy this or, you know, call back to a moment that we had together or whatever. Those are the moments those are the things that are going to really mean something. The bottle of whiskey was because me and this. Her name is Laura Gayle, she’s amazing. She had me and her had had a night where we had quite a lot of whiskey. And so it just reminded me of the night that we have. And she, you know, she had written a thing about it about, like, we drink this whole bottle together or something. And so that, like, was, feels impersonal, but it was personal to us. And so always thinking about like, What’s something that’s like really gonna say, like, nobody else would have sent this, it would have just been From me to you, and thinking about those. And even if you can’t, like just doing something nice, just earrings or something, you know, it doesn’t have to be something you spent three days thinking about, but you know, like, oh, Casey would like that. Let me send it along. Or let me even taking text pictures and sending that is something that means something of like, oh, they’re really truly thinking about me.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. So what would you say to someone right now who is unable to go to live events and meet these people face to face? How do you create networking opportunities like currently from the comfort of your couch.

Abbey Woodcock
So the great thing is there is so many different ways that people are nerding out. Number one way something magical that happens when you’re in a room with people is it’s something that you can’t do or or, like, can’t do at this exact moment. There is a lot of ways even like Facebook groups. I think you were in Dan Martell, Facebook group with me, Dan Martell, you said this Facebook group, it was called the Martell method. He doesn’t have any more, but it was just like he was people he thought were interesting. And he invited them to a Facebook group. And he was like, hey, like there’s no agenda for this group. It’s just these are some interesting people. And if you have questions, I’d love to like have interesting conversations. He would sometimes do lives where he’d bring on just so you could introduce yourself to the group and there was like, he kept it to like 30 people. And I’ve thought about that so many times of like, What a great idea to just bring people together that might not know each other and I’ve met a lot of people from that group. Just because I would ask a question I’d be like, I know one question I had was like, I was having trouble sleeping. I had this like weird sleep thing. I was like, I don’t know if any of you guys know anything about sleep. But let me throw this out there, there was like three people that were like, let me have on a call, let me tell you what worked for me. And I ended up becoming friends with them. And like that all just came out of having a group of people that was like, really a social group. And obviously, we were all business people. We’re all marketers. So we had that in common as well. But there was Yeah, I did end up getting clients from there. There was two people from that group that I ended up working with later, just because we have had good conversations and that group,

Casey Stanton
so just being active in Facebook groups, but it’s important that you’re active in the groups that have the quality of people and maybe not the quantity. Yes, and Dan’s got 30 in the group, so 29 other people. It’s not a lot of people to meet, right?

Abbey Woodcock
No, exactly. And that’s where you can have deeper level conversations. That’s another thing I think people get wrong with Facebook groups is like there’s this idea of like, add value. I’m quoting, you know, adding value in these groups of like posting your links or like giving advice all the time. Like sometimes it’s just being an interesting person and having interesting conversations in these groups and it doesn’t have to be a group of 10,000 people, it can be a small business group, you can invite people yourselves. You know, being cautious that people are so sick of Facebook groups, so you know, explaining what the purpose of the group is and like that, you know, there’s no agenda, no sales, nothing like that happening. It’s just interesting people coming together. I have a group that I’m in that is just for making fun of bad Facebook ads, like there’s like 10 of us in there and we just post like, we got we just post like terrible Facebook ads from businesses and like, and just make jokes with each other and one of the members had a baby recently, we did a virtual baby shower for her we all got on zoom. And it was funny cuz we all ended up drinking. Obviously, she was pregnant so she wasn’t drinking and so it turned into just Her babysitting a bunch of drunk people on zoom. But it was so much fun like, and that just came from us. Like we didn’t know each other, there was two people that I knew before being in the group. And now I’m friends with all of them. And so having a small intimate group where you have like a shared kind of social purpose is one really great way to start that networking. If you can’t be at events, I would always say in person is gonna Trump anything online, like tenfold. But, but yes, it’s not possible for you. There’s a lot of like, companies that are very invested in helping you connect with other people right now.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, I think I think that’s really smart, these small groups, and you can go join them, or you can create them, and they both have different amounts of work. So I’m thinking of groups that I’m in, I’d rather pay someone else to facilitate them. Right. I’d rather not be the facilitator. Yep. And I’ve got a friend and he’s got a couple different groups and I’m a member of all them and I’m a paying member. And it’s a great opportunity for me to meet new people, I get introduced to his friends, and they’re smart people. And he likes me. And like, it just makes sense. Also, I created a new whatsapp group, and I invited two guys to it, then they invited another guy to it. So there’s four of us in there. And all we talk about is business deals, how do you do deals, buying and selling. And we’re all a little nascent in the market, like understanding how to do deals, but like we’re a group of guys that are doing it. And it’s really exciting to have that sounding board that’s specific. And as a result, I feel like we’ve got just like a really good momentum together. And we’re not being watered down by 1000 other people that are maybe saying they’re doing it and maybe they are but like, these are the guys that like I like and you know, maybe we would bring in a couple more people but it would probably never get more than 10 right? It’s like a good core tight group. So anyone listening to this, create your own group, you can create a whatsapp group for free. You can do a text message thread whatever WhatsApp is better though I think because you don’t get like the weirdest notification sometimes can break between iOS and Android so yeah, yeah, yeah

Abbey Woodcock
yeah for sure. And yeah I love that and you know i The other thing about like paid groups if you’re looking to like network in bigger groups or groups that other people run looking for pay groups is always going to be better than for free groups because the people that are in there are invested in their business so like you kind of mentioned something I’d love to dig into of like, there’s so many groups out there where people say that they’re doing things like copywriting is one of them there’s groups with like 20,000 people in them of copywriters in quotes and like, they’ll give advice and I look at the advice I’m like, oh, they’ve never actually had a copywriting client before. Like, never give this advice. They read a bunch of books and like, so just being wary of like if you’re joining other people’s groups, especially large free ones on Facebook, knowing like the level of person that’s why I’m always like, I’m really active and copy chief. That’s a paid group, separate from Facebook. got its own forum. Like, that’s just a high level of person because it’s a fairly expensive group for for a forum. So

Casey Stanton
yeah, yeah, I think that’s that’s a great point to make sure you’re around the right people be willing to spend the money to make sure that everyone else who’s in the group can afford to spend the money. Yeah. And it’s like one good idea, one good deal, one solution to a problem that you have is, to me oftentimes worth the cost of admission for the full year.

Abbey Woodcock
Is that for sure. Yeah, definitely. And that’s true for live events too. Like I tell people always looking at the price of live event if the tickets 50 bucks to go the event, it’s gonna be $50 customers that are going to be there. And so you know, the you talked about titans of direct response. I think that ticket was like five grand. And it was so much

Casey Stanton
I couldn’t like I closed work. And I took that money, and I spent it only on that event. Like I was like, that’s all I had that it was every dollar I had, and I was the brokest worst marketer in the room as a result.

Abbey Woodcock
I was probably even with you. For me to like it was expensive, but I got so much relationships and work from that event like that event was incredible. Like the speakers were great. It was like people that never really speak on stage. But like the quality of people in the room because the ticket price was so expensive and Brian Kurtz like had personally invited most of them was insane, like I had coming out of that. That was my first core project, but I got actually was from that event.

Casey Stanton
Oh, that’s huge. Yeah, the family. That’s a big deal.

Abbey Woodcock
It was huge. And that came from I like met the guy literally at like 1am at the bar, like one of the core affiliates and like, just that level of event and then after that, I was like, these are the kind of events I want to be with these people in the room and it’s a stretch but if you make one deal that a Gora deal would have Yeah, that would have been like five x what what I paid to further my ticket. I mean, obviously travel expenses and stuff, but you know, thinking of like what level of deal if I want a 20 thousand dollar project I’m not gonna find it in a room where the tickets for the dollars generally.

Casey Stanton
Totally. And when I when I went to Titans, I thought that I wanted to like go meet everybody. So I have a photo with Gary Pennsylvania. And I was really excited to get that. And Gary doesn’t know me. And it’s like I waited in line to like speak with him and get a photo and it’s just kind of like it was a whatever kind of opportunity. I like it because it’s an important photo to me, but it’s not like anything happened as a result. The business that happened as a result happened to the relationships that I was able to make and they weren’t with those top people. It wasn’t worth with. Gary, Vince Ivanka, it was worth it was with the people I sat next to Yeah, being able to follow up with them. That’s awesome.

Abbey Woodcock
I can’t believe we didn’t connect at that events. Yeah, I was like wheeling and dealing. I was like, meeting everybody.

Casey Stanton
I think I’d like didn’t even have money for the bar. So like I was like in the bathroom hanging out or something. Oh man, the number of people I feel like I’ve met in the bathroom at events, right? Yeah.

Abbey Woodcock
In the bathroom line. That’s the other thing like for women, I’m like standing in line at the bathroom. That’s where the conversations happen, because that’s where people can get real.

Casey Stanton
Right? Absolutely. Cool. All right. So I’ve got two big takeaways here. One is that getting face to face with folks is critical. And if you can get face to face with them live, then that’s the most important. And if you can do it online, do it. But do it in a smaller group, try to find quality of relationships over quantity, and then follow up with people authentically, you shared some really cool ways to follow up with people gifts, ways to kind of show that you care about them, message them, send them texts, and the longer you spend in business, the more likely you are to be able to like only have people in your life that you really enjoy and that’s like where you should be right. You don’t have to work network with people that you don’t like. I think it’s really important that you don’t just try to go to the top person in the room. So your idea of going to maybe a person to step down Or following up with someone after the event or I think even more importantly, getting them before they speak at the event before they kind of become attractive to everyone else is a really smart move. And to do that, it’s like know who’s coming know the outcomes of the event, you’re a marketer. So you should be direct response at some level. So you should know like, okay, to make it worth this ticket price, I need to create these relationships, and then go and get them and don’t get them the normal way. Get them away, that’s going to have some stickiness. I also think, even stuff like you can, like send flowers to someone’s room from the front desk at a hotel. So why not just say before, like, the day before someone speaks, send them something and say you’re gonna kill it. Can’t wait to see your talk. Right?

Abbey Woodcock
If I got something like that, Kevin Rogers did something similar. His wife actually come around to his good friend of mine that found her copy chief. His wife had sent me a basket of like little little makeup things like there was like a lip gloss and like just different little things. And she was Like, you know, I know you’re gonna kill it like just thought of you and like, here’s a few supplies for your talk or something. And to my hotel room and I will never forget that. Like, it was such a little thing that just was like, oh, wow, like, that’s awesome.

Casey Stanton
It was like before you deserved it. Yeah. Which is like such a different way to show someone that you care. Yeah, she’s got a pre emptive Yeah, this has been really helpful. And I really like to that you’ve learned copy and copy is about persuasion and about understanding the outcome and like getting that outcome. And like, you’ll never not be able to write copy, but you’re also focusing on other things, which is like helping other freelancers be able to have the level of success of business that you’ve experienced. And I think you’ve got a masterclass for them.

Abbey Woodcock
Yeah, so um, yeah, I have a masterclass I did with my friend Chris orange co CEO. A whole big chunk, like a two hour chunk of the masterclass is like even digging deeper than that stuff about live events that we talked about here. Like including Like how I asked Q and A’s to speakers like there’s a whole bunch of stuff on that but also other ways to find clients and create relationships that lead to clients. And so yeah, that’s at freelance co op.org slash get clients and then yeah that masterclass has been an amazing tool for a lot of people to be able to apply these strategies and we get real deep into the actual tactics of how to do it.

Casey Stanton
Awesome. So that’s freelance co op.org slash get clients for your masterclass Abbey, great chatting with you. Where are you off to next in your RV? Are you heading home next?

Abbey Woodcock
Ah, we are thinking of doing a long trip my kids finish up school. So we’re thinking of actually going out west we went to South Dakota was the furthest that we’ve gone so far. And so we’re thinking of going even more westerly than that. So yeah, we’re not sure we just we just started driving and see what happens. It’s amazing chase to the cooler weather, right?

Casey Stanton
Yeah, exactly. Cool. All right. Thank you so much for being on. Thank you.

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