YPMS Episode 5: Should I start a podcast? Learn why you need a podcast with Michael Greenberg

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Show Notes

Casey Stanton
You’re listening to your perfect marketing strategy, the only podcast to teach you what marketing tactics are working now, how to know which tactics are right for your business, and the immediate steps you can take to deploy those tactics to grow your business today. On today’s episode, I’m with my friend Michael Greenberg out of Denver, who owns a company called call for content, and they are experts in b2b podcasting. Hey, Michael, how are you?

Michael Greenberg
Pretty good. Casey, how about yourself?

Casey Stanton
Hey, dude. All right. All right. Let’s just dive right into this. Why should someone produce a podcast?

Michael Greenberg
So let me start with why I started producing podcasts. And then we can go from there. My background is as a b2b growth strategy consultant. And I was working with a podcast network that mostly operated as a production company for b2b locally focused shows for lead gen. And then I was working with an agency that had helped productize their service packages, and had been working with the podcast network on a whole lot of digital transformation in specific transcription. And I watched, just during my year, year and a half engagement, I watched the price of transcription start dropping exponentially,

Casey Stanton
Also human transcription to machine transcription.

Michael Greenberg
Correct. And so I watched that move happen. And over the course of the next year after that transcription dropped to a near zero cost, or effectively zero. So that was a huge change. And the agency minded side of myself said, there is a cost efficiency that can be developed from this that others are not yet going after.

Casey Stanton
So you came into the podcast world thinking that the since the cost of transcription went from zero Remember spending a lot of money on transcription

Michael Greenberg
Used to be $1 or more minute? That was the first price break at $1 a minute. That was huge.

Casey Stanton
That was huge. That was rev.com leaving that Right,

Michael Greenberg
Right. And then they opened up temi.com, which was their first foray into machine translation. And that was 10 cents on

Casey Stanton
Yeah. Yeah, that’s interesting. So you saw that happen. And as a result of that, you saw the need to get into the podcast space, you wanted to kind of arbitrage that decrease cost in transcription.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. And that’s, that’s where the company name actually came from call for content. And we focused initially just on taking audio content via recordings or interviews and turning it into written content. And then we expanded out from there into podcasting, because it was the easiest way to create the audio content, and we could release it at the same time.

Casey Stanton
Okay, let’s hold up right there. Because What you’re seeing right now is not what I typically hear the podcast base, everyone is saying start a podcast so you can build a cadre of followers.

Michael Greenberg
You’re not gonna build followers with podcast.

Casey Stanton
Oh, just real talk. Okay, I hear people say you should do it because it promotes your brand. Are you disagreeing with that?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, directly.

Casey Stanton
Awesome. Okay, so why should someone produce a podcast then? If they’re not going to promote the brand? And if they’re not going to collect followers, why would they even produce a podcast in the first place?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, so there’s two real arguments? Well, there’s three arguments, one of which is specific to be to be on when to create a podcast. The first one is the most traditional. It’s when people talk about building followers. It’s when you have an existing follower base in the podcast listenership demographics. So that means millennials and Gen Xers have to be the majority. Okay? If you can create a podcast and transfer some of that over, and in the process of that transition, you are able to build deeper relationships with a subset of your audience. So that’s, that’s sort of, we’ll call that the traditional option.

Casey Stanton
Okay, so say it another way. The traditional option is to build deeper relationships with people that you’re already in contact with just with a new medium.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, podcasts generally work best is like middle or bottom of the funnel, in terms of marketing.

Casey Stanton
And if you’re not familiar, this notion of tofu MOFU Bofu, right top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of funnel, top of funnel is what builds awareness and brings folks to you. And then bottom of funnel is at point of sale.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. Or near to it.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, okay, great. So you’re saying that this is not a tofu a top of funnel activity as the podcast you think it’s more of a bottom of funnel which is there already. They already know what you have to sell or offering. They already kind of know, like, trust you, and you want to just kind of continue to facilitate a discussion with them.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, the difference between a blog readers know like trust in you, and a podcast listeners who hears you speak is an order of magnitude.

Casey Stanton
You’re saying that podcast listeners have a higher propensity to know like and trust you as a result of listening to your voice versus just reading words on a website?

Michael Greenberg
Exactly.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, for sure. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, you become humanized when they hear your voice.

Michael Greenberg
Precisely.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, so this is interesting. So you’re saying it’s more effective than it’s more effective at, like holding the relationship, a podcast is than a blog post. But you’re also saying that you shouldn’t use podcasting as an activity to draw people in?

Michael Greenberg
No, I think it’s much, much harder to pull somebody in with a podcast than almost any other medium and that’s Largely comes down to most people still don’t listen to podcasts. A lot of people do, but most don’t. And that leads us into the cost efficiency argument.

Casey Stanton
Okay, before we go to cost efficiency is one of your three. You mentioned the first one there.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. So this is number one that we’ve gone through cost efficiency is number two.

Casey Stanton
Okay. Talk to me about cost efficiency because podcasting is relatively inexpensive as far as I’ve seen, but it is more expensive. In my whole microphone, boom, arm setup, and everything cost me a couple hundred bucks. But I can write a blog post, you know, with just my iPhone.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, you can write a blog post with several thousand dollars in equipment too. Or you can hire a writer to create a blog post and a decent one’s going to cost you at least a few hundred. Sure. How many words is your average blog post?

Casey Stanton
Oh, what do they say? 500. Word articles are kind of past Now and we’re looking at more definitive content and like the 5000 to 8000 words.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. So do you know how long it takes to speak? Let’s say 6000 words.

Casey Stanton
I have no idea.

Michael Greenberg
About 40 minutes.

Casey Stanton
Wow. And 6000 words to write would be. If I was on it, maybe a half day might take me a full day to do.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, I know personally 6000 words, is not doable most days because of all the little fires that come up. Once I break that flow, I might get the first 2000 down, and then everything starts burning, and I’m out.

Casey Stanton
So your premise here is that we can sit down and write a blog post and it’ll take us a full day or two days or a week or honestly 80% will get done and it will sit in a draft in your Google Docs folder until.

Michael Greenberg
Until now for me. Getting those Google Docs done.

Casey Stanton
Or the the flipside is to record audio of that, get that transcribed with this low cost transcription, and have that be the majority of the content that gets deployed as a blog post?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. I mean, once you’re talking about it, you’re going to repeat yourself, if you’re talking instead of writing, and you’re going to speak more informally, and you might lose 50% of that content. But if you have somebody say, interviewing you, who doesn’t know anything about the subject, and they’re just asking every question that comes up, that four hours of interview is going to easily make your post in probably every variation of social content you could want, as well as a few other smaller tangential pieces around it.

Casey Stanton
Okay, so, so again, to kind of like top line this you’re saying podcasts are not the thing to generate an audience. It’s not the thing to find new and different people. It is the medium by which you can create content. And then that content can be distributed as blog posts as audio content, as social content, probably even pull it out and stick some citations on it and make it an email.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. And it’s content that’s in your voice.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. And it truly is in your voice. So you talk about how that content can be less formal. Is that an issue you think? Do you think that just like naturally podcasts are conversational? As a result, any content produced from that would be conversational?

Michael Greenberg
I think the best podcasts are conversations, even solo shows that we create are designed to spark conversations internally. Or, you know that monologue is really a conversation of the Spirit. beaker with themselves to some extent. And it’s part of the continuous discussion that the speaker is having around topics with their audience. And so, yes, I think that people like podcasts because they’re starved for conversation, because we’re not allowed to talk about certain things or because we don’t.

Casey Stanton
That’s interesting. I’m kinda like reminded, if you talk to yourself, you’re either crazy or you’re an entrepreneur, right? Yeah, this is the activity, I take my dog for a walk and often leave myself voice memos or send them out to my system to get transcribed. Yeah, and using that for content creation makes a ton of sense. So you’re of the position that content creation happens through audio most easily.

Michael Greenberg
Audio first, content creation is not only easier, especially for subject matter experts and non writers. But it is also more cost efficient. And I’m willing to go toe to toe on any operation to prove that.

Casey Stanton
Even if you offshore content creation, which I always find to be a dangerous bet, if you get non native English speakers to write content for you, it’s just not going to be as good as a native English. So let’s say you go with a native English speaker, and you use a platform like writer access calm, you’re going to get writers there at 10, 11, 12 cents a word.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, if you want a halfway decent one.

Casey Stanton
Yeah. And like while that’s nice, it’s a nice platform, if you just have them create content from the ground up. Doesn’t matter how smart they are. They won’t have your voice. And the best way to have your voice is probably to do one of two things. One is to like create a Codex of your voice. Here’s how I talk. Here’s how I say things.

Michael Greenberg
Like, almost always wrong. Just want to point out I’ve made a lot of those. And every time the client comes back and says “Oh, Well, I wouldn’t say it that way”. And it takes, you know, two years to build a real good one.

Casey Stanton
Yeah. And the one that I like in that space, if anyone’s listening to this, and they want to see wily coyote, the cartoon, there’s like the 10 rules of wily Coyote. And it’s just like, you know, he uses obscene Li large devices to capture the road runner and always loses. And it’s just like 10 rules for engagement. And like that works in the cartoon setting. But when it comes to technical discussion when it comes to real content creation, you’re right, it’s difficult to write a Codex, that is satisfactory, that actually covers the basis and gets the content, right. So we can do the Codex or the flip side, stick a microphone in front of someone and it sounds like it doesn’t even matter necessarily the quality of the audio setup if it’s going to be used primarily for content creation.

Michael Greenberg
That is correct. Um, you want the way I like to look at it is you want it good enough that you’ll listen to it with your cheapest headphones. And if it’s at that level, you’re good to go.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, no reason to like fuss over audio fidelity too much. It’s like, if you’re miked Well, if it’s not windy, you’re good.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. I mean, especially for a conversation, if you’re recording individual tracks. It’s really easy to clarify the sound. And I use offshore editing, just like we go offshore for content production. Except when I’m doing sound and audio production. I don’t run into the language barrier.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, right. Yeah. Audio is audio doesn’t matter, right? Yeah. Okay, so you give us your two points. What’s your third point there?

Michael Greenberg
So number three, is building connections and network and using the podcasts for targeted networking.

Casey Stanton
I love this idea. I remember you shared it with me before and it’s just, I think this is like revolutionary on a way to look at a podcast.

Michael Greenberg
This is not most podcasts are being produced for this b2b podcasting industry standard. Anyone who talks about b2b podcasting, no matter what they do, no matter what they say, I guarantee you they’re selling this strategy.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, okay. And I think just before we get into the strategy I think the counter argument to the strategies that Joe Rogan. What did Joe Rogan just get signed for it just like for the, Ridiculous Money?

Michael Greenberg
Ridiculous Money

Casey Stanton
Yeah, hundreds of millions of dollars for podcasts. And odds are, you’re not going to create that right the listener that you’re not the next Joe Rogan.

Michael Greenberg
And let me just say that specifically you can’t you Joe Rogan was a unique combination of factors that led to Joe Rogan being able to position himself as the biggest show in podcasting. You were not one of the first popular podcasts, you were not one of the first podcasters this is not a Facebook, Myspace situation or Friendster. This is the tonight show.

Casey Stanton
Limited seats. Okay. That’s interesting. Oh, okay. So knowing that the listener won’t be the next Joe Rogan, knowing that the listener is not going to be building an audience necessarily, and if they build an audience is a byproduct. Great good for them.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, they’re super valuable, but they’re hard to grow. And there’s cheaper ways to make money.

Casey Stanton
So tell me, what is this approach that you’re talking about?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. So this approach comes in two formats. One is creating a seasonal show. So running limited series. The other is a continuous interview show. And so let’s start with the continuous interview show, because that’s sort of the traditional model within this discipline. And that’s the one I learned way back when with local lead gen from the b2b The Podcast Network. And so the show that they ran for lead gen most often included, three guests have a 10 to 15 minutes spot each with one host. And the goal was simply to bring people into a physical studio and meet with that host for local networking, so they all knew who you are. And after a year or two, they’d all been on your show everyone you wanted to do business with.

Casey Stanton
Okay, so let me let me say that again, in the low end, like your locale, the old model was bringing multiple people for individual spots, maybe around a central theme. And just kind of theme is the local area. That’s the theme. Okay. So nothing else ties these guests together in that traditional way.

Michael Greenberg
Not in most cases.

Casey Stanton
Okay. So you have like three differing individuals and they’re together and what you’re doing Every time you have an episode, you’re just networking with three people and they know about you. They know about your business, they know about what you offer, they like you, you get to kind of lead by giving you create content for them, you get to promote them, they feel good about it, and you just like win in their eyes. You’re this person who said, Hey, I like you. I want you on my show. I’m gonna do all this stuff for you. I’m not asking for anything in return. And as a result, you tend to get a lot in return. Is that right?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah.

Casey Stanton
Interesting. I can’t think of a podcast episode that I or a pocket series that I know that has that format of multiple people on at once. Well,

Michael Greenberg
I know a quarter million dollar Podcast Network built on that.

Casey Stanton
Okay, interesting.

Michael Greenberg
That’s number one. Number two within this traditional model, is a targeted sector niche focus show, with one on one interviews lasting about 30 minutes.

Casey Stanton
And it sounds familiar.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. It’s almost like it’s the most Common podcast format, right? Because we all make these. Yeah. And the reason for that is because 30 minutes is a great conversation. It’s about the average commute. It’s a, you know, it’s a short jog. And it’s not too time intensive from the people you’re asking to record. Right? And so that’s all great. But you then get to position your show. And if you do it, right, where you can meet the thousand people that you really want to meet. So that’s 1000, because you want to get as Nishi as possible. The highest value, the most targeted, is best.

Casey Stanton
Interesting. So I’m reminded of like Chet Holmes, Tony Robbins partner years ago, with the ultimate selling machine, and he had something called the dream 100 list, which was the best way to grow your company is Yeah, you could do marketing, but you You can also come up with the hundred ideal customers and go get them. And what you’re saying is like, kind of create a dream 100 list inside of your business and go interview those people on your podcast.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, make your podcast to hit those people specifically. And to be interesting to them exclusively.

Casey Stanton
That’s really fascinating in doing that, but what’s the opposite? How else are you going to reach these hundred people? You’re going to call them and say, Hey, Michael, are you available for a sales call?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I think I’ll pass on that.

Casey Stanton
Right. And Michael, I’ve got something to sell. You didn’t chatting. No one’s gonna say yes to that. And it’s difficult to kind of back into that sales call. You’re saying if you position the podcast episode as a gift, gift, give. And as a result, the person knows you likes you trust you. And at the end, they’re probably gonna say, hey, Michael, tell me a little bit more about what you offer. Then you have the opportunity to have that sales call and it feels very natural and Yeah, straightforward and honest, right?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. And let’s walk through the touch points around that. So first, you get to reach out to them and invite them on your show. Then you get to have an intro call to learn about them and map out the show. Then you get to record the show. Then you send them an email thanking them right after the show. And then you send them the edited copy before it releases, so they can hear how great they are. And then you drop the episode, and you get yet another contact point.

Casey Stanton
Just thinking about like a typical sales process, you go to an event. I’ve been to high dollar masterminds, right, you spend a lot of money going to these masterminds, and they’re in beautiful locations, and you have a couple touch points with people but it’s not necessarily memory. All right, are you go to the local meetup in your community? I’m in Philadelphia, you know, we’ve got a number of them. So you know, I go meet people there. It’s like hard to make a lasting connection, because the meetings an hour long, and there’s 35 people there, and how do I find the right person, single them out, talk to them and like leave them with a lasting feeling that they want to talk to me again. And you’re saying, in that same amount of time, I can create a much deeper relationship and give multiple times to them. Just by inviting them on the podcast.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. And then every time you reshare a quote from their episode later, it’ll pop up in their social feed.

Casey Stanton
Oh, think of that. Wow. So putting together a content distribution strategy, what would you say each podcast has, how many pieces of content that you’d like to drip out over time?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, so that depends on the type of show pretty heavily. We generally try for at least one So you’ve got the episode itself, the audio, we generally pull about to, for our clients, little audio clips that we turn into videos. In episodes, we’ve easily pulled 10 in many episodes without an issue. So you can put together quite a bit of content there, then you’ve got the show notes. And you can release the transcript as a separate blog post. Or you can edit it down into sort of a compressed summarized version as another blog post a month or two later.

Casey Stanton
Amazing. That’s a ton of content that gets created. And just to do some math, let’s say you only have two good audio clips from an interview. Those two don’t just go out once. Right, that content is likely still valid if you pull good. Call it like future proof content, you know, content about fundamentals, things that are floated change. If you pull that content out, you can just put that on a content distribution strategy for every 20 weeks you drop it or something and you have to content, but you’re able to then stay in touch with those people. Long term. Wow, that’s phenomenal. I mean, the opposite of that is like scheduling in your CRM to follow up with them via email and say, Hey, Michael, just thinking you wanted to check in?

Michael Greenberg
I’m not a big fan of that. But if I have to use it, my CRM is going to be podcast focused. As if it’s somebody I needed a meetup. That’s interesting. I should have them on my podcast.

Casey Stanton
That’s a great point. And again, just like how flattering It is to be asked, right? When you ask people to be on your podcast, how often do they say no?

Michael Greenberg
If they’re sea level at companies over 10 million in revenue, it’s maybe a 50-50.

Casey Stanton
That’s incredible. What are the odds that you can talk to a sea level at a company that size and get them on any kind of call otherwise? In fleeting?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, if you’re coming in as sales, unless you have exactly what They want while they’re currently evaluating it, and they invited you in, you’re probably not going to get in.

Casey Stanton
Totally. Wow. Okay, great. And then what’s a hit rate for maybe a smaller, let’s say, mid level? You know, if someone’s selling to someone that’s mid level, manager, Director level

Michael Greenberg
70 to 80.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, incredible. So you send out five messages and you get three or four books.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. And that’s, that’s pretty common, as long as you take the time to write a personalized email. If it’s an obvious, you know, email blast, and you’re sending it to marketers, they’re not going to respond.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, right. We’re all a little sour about getting automated email blasts.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. And we know how to recognize them now.

Casey Stanton
We sure do then. Okay, great. So those are your three main points. Was there anything else that otherwise I have some other questions for you

Michael Greenberg
Those are really the big three, I guess those are the big three strategies we use with shows. And then they’re pretty easy. I think once you start thinking in these terms, it gets really easy to weave them into existing content and marketing strategies, which is where they really get to shine.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, last thing I want to do on a given day is just sit down and write a 6000 word article. And I know if it’s a 500 word article, it’s really not worth much. You know, when you think of SEO, if I’m doing some satellite blog posts, just like, blah, you know, like, it’s not not a whole lot of tangible value. But if I could do some definitive, long content, and every Friday I knock out an hour’s worth of audio recording and that gets me the blog post and I send that off to someone to clean up seems like a fast way to produce. Second big thing I’m taking away from this so far is that if I want a sales conversation with someone if I want the opportunity to sell someone, I first put them on my hit list, my dream 100 my gold list, and then I go and request them to be on the podcast. Then doing that I have the opportunity to have that sales call in a very giving way instead of just asking for money.

Michael Greenberg
Yep.

Casey Stanton
Cool. So I’m curious. What’s not working in the podcasting industry today? Like, what’s your beef with the podcasting industry?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I think the biggest issue is that the podcasting industry is thought of as a media industry. And I feel that podcasting is due to the depth of connection, and the difficulty in growing audience that comes with building that sort of deep connection. I don’t think it’s well suited to advertising as a revenue stream and as a revenue model for a lot of the shows.

Casey Stanton
Okay, I love this because so many people are playing this game of, I’m going to produce 150 episodes. And I’m going to get my followers and then I’m going to monetize that with a CPM play on advertising. And, you know, I know someone who gets this big CPM fee or cost per thousand listens, cut thousand downloads. And I’m going to do the same thing. And I’m going to be able to bring in an extra couple thousand dollars a month just from my podcast. And you’re saying that and while that may be possible for some folks, it’s not the right way to look at a podcast and not the right way to monetize.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, that’s a really, can I curse on the show? Yeah, that’s a shit revenue model. And you get his name that you chose that if that’s like your one strategy here?

Casey Stanton
Yeah, yeah. Just like produce. Yeah, it’s the AdSense model. Right? Google AdSense, just like produce a bunch of crappy content on your website so that you can get what? A couple dollars a month or Amazon sales or whatever, like, yeah, you kind of have to sell your soul for that stuff. Don’t you? Like work your ass off to produce that content? in the hopes that it’s the right content and that what did I just see? some content site, just reduced payouts from like 30% to 15% to content creators? Just like if that’s your business model, you’re screwed.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. And we have clients who come to us all the time, who have been running these hobbyist shows for years, and who have, you know, three, four or 5000 episodes? Oh, but I’ve only got 20,000 downloads. That’s okay with anything.

Casey Stanton
So tell me Okay, so what you’re saying there is that the volume of episodes that you create if you don’t have listenership you’re just not going to get sponsors for it?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, content is inherently worthless. In digital, because it has a zero replication cost.

Casey Stanton
Okay.

Michael Greenberg
So right, we could transcribe the interview we’re having now I could go re record it with somebody else you would probably never know. Right?

Casey Stanton
Hmm, that’s interesting. So if podcasting is a poor medium for advertising, you think that podcasting should be again, a sales conversation and facilitating ongoing discussions with your current customers or audience. And then content creation to go on your website to go in emails to go in different places. And the benefit for that could be SEO, the benefits of that could be lead magnets, bribes, that kind of stuff.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. And you know, if you get listeners, that’s fantastic. But if that’s your goal, it’s probably not a great one. And if you do want to monetize a podcast, you should monetize it with a secondary business associated with it like a service business or a coaching business, or I don’t know, cmo as a service business, because that seems like a really useful tool for people listening to podcasts about reading marketing tactics.

Casey Stanton
Right? So be able to create a direct line. Create a direct line between what you’re talking about and an offer.

Michael Greenberg
Right. Because if your audience wants that thing, then they’ll buy it. Yeah. And if you’re reaching out to the right people, then you should be cultivating that audience. Just one, one new listener at a time.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, so talk to me, how many downloads? Do you want to see on an episode to know that you’re doing a good job? know that it’s, it’s solid? One, more than one?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, I don’t want to see downloads. That’s not necessarily the metric. In the sales case, I want to see a happy guest. Um, referrals are a great measure in those sorts of cases because often the best people to bring on are not your direct customers, but the people who would be okay referring you to them.

Casey Stanton
Great point. So finding, so the people that you interview you find that one too many. You don’t go one to one, maybe you say, if you want to speak on stages you go interview. Not just like event spaces, but maybe planners, and the vendors can get you on the stages.

Michael Greenberg
And if there’s a specific stage you want to speak on, then you invite their biggest sponsor to to come on your show.

Casey Stanton
That’s it. Awesome trick. How do you facilitate the discussion? It’s the sponsor, plus the event planner.

Michael Greenberg
Back to back episodes.

Casey Stanton
Okay, you go.

Michael Greenberg
I just had so and so on from XYZ last week. I think this is going to be a great episode. They were raving about you.

Casey Stanton
Amazing. Oh, I love it. Being able to stack that content up. And at the end of the day, this is not manipulative, because you’re creating content. You’re helping people and you’re helping them amplify the message that they probably aren’t amplifying well enough. That

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, that’s, that’s a good way to put it.

Casey Stanton
And I think at the end of the day here, it’s like, flattery goes a long way. Like You’re flattering someone, but it does.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don’t, I don’t mean to get a get dirty, but like, flattery can go all the way. You don’t need to say anything that’s truthful or honest or direct in a lot of scenarios, to get it done, so long as you keep them happy, and you say nice things.

Casey Stanton
Sure, sure. And the act of offering them to be on your podcast and then you and your team doing all the labor of producing it, making them look great, ultimately, so that they can have this content to show it off and say, Hey, I am great, I think helps them tremendously and as a result makes you look really good and fosters that relationship in a way that I just think this is so important. Right now we’re recording this kind of like in the throes of COVID and businesses don’t call people and they don’t call their customers who they claim to care about to just check in and say, Hey, is your family okay? There’s like this care that we, we claim to have and we actually don’t exhibit. So the clients that we see mo x, they’re calling all of their past customers for a lifetime, like the lifetime customers, in some situations, hundreds, 500 customers, they’re calling these folks and having one on one conversations just to see how these people are because we actually care about the people to work with. And that that feeling of care. Like produces sales as a byproduct. And we can’t say that we’re a caring organization and not actually do things right. It’s that caring is not an intention, it’s an action. So if you care about someone, reach out to them and connect with them. If you care about what they’re doing in business, reach out to them, interview them, get them on your podcast, it’s flattering, it supports you it creates new content, I think all around it. It seems like Contribute incredible hack.

Michael Greenberg
Thanks.

Casey Stanton
Yeah. Okay, so listenership you kind of don’t care too much about it. Maybe it’s important but not too much. What if someone says, I’d like to maybe podcast? How many downloads? Are you getting? Would you say to that?

Michael Greenberg
I wouldn’t respond in most cases. They already want to be on my podcast. Like, they, you already you already want to be on my podcast? Why does it matter how many downloads I’m getting? Now the funny thing is, I asked for this on every show I appear on. The reason I asked for it is to measure exposure and measure conversion rates. Yeah. But if they’re just asking because they want to know if you’re on the, you’re the biggest show, that’s not a good reason. And if your responses Well, I’m listening to about 800 people per episode, and we think about 300 of those are CEOs middle market companies. Doesn’t matter how big your audiences?

Casey Stanton
Yeah, yeah. And think of that, like, what is your other opportunity to go speak in front of 100 people? 200, 500? Like, you’re gonna go on a stage, you’re really gonna fly to Orlando and go down to like to the, you know, the Sheraton and go speak like, sure. And you might speak with more people and the, like, the connection might be stronger, because they’re seeing you walk on stage and you can, you know, shake their hands afterwards and whatever. But a podcast gets you in front of those people and stop thinking, I think we should stop thinking that you need to be in front of 1,000 10,000 20,000 people just be happy being in front of more people than you would have been in front of that week.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, if you’re in b2b, speaking in front of a vistage group is worth more to you, then 1,000 college students?

Casey Stanton
Absolutely. Yeah. That’s a great point. It’s the quality of the audience that you’re talking to. And even if that audience is smaller, If they’re strong, if they are your right potential customer makes a ton of sense to get in front of them. Or again, if not even your customer if they’re a one to many, if they’re a amplifier of you, if they can introduce you to other people, if they can put you as a quiver in their belt, right. Exactly. That’s what makes sense. Yeah. Okay, so what about like kind of the the nerdy stuff here so like, why should people be focused on getting listenership doesn’t matter if it’s on Apple podcasts or Spotify or SoundCloud?

Michael Greenberg
You probably want to be on Apple and Spotify? And maybe Google to Google podcasts? Yeah, um, I think the secondary and tertiary platforms are generally not worthwhile, unless you’ve got some real grog nerds you know, some old it guys listening to your show, or some other really early adaptors adopters, sorry. Because most, most people have one of those three apps. Yeah.

Casey Stanton
That makes sense. I once heard that a podcast, it does have an incredible ability to send a notification to your phone without any algorithm.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, unless they turn it off.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, it looks turned off. And frankly, I’ve turned off all my notifications. So it doesn’t work for me, but some folks keep them on.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, I think, at least for most of the kinds of buyers and personas we work with to target, they already have notifications off for that sort of stuff.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, I think that makes sense. The more maybe the more educated the more professional the audience, the less likely they are to have a phone blowing up and notifications

Michael Greenberg
And the closer to technology they work, the less likely as well.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, that makes sense. Other notifications, just go to a discord channel. Okay, cool. So let’s talk about a last big question here is like how does content Get produced, though. Like, what’s your recommendation? If I’m going to record? If I’m going to say, okay, Michael, I agree with you. That sounds super smart moving forward. I’m going to record content every Friday. Right? Like, personally, I like to just do content days on Fridays. What’s the framework by which you recommend to someone bullet three points that they want to cover today, go to Google and find a couple keywords that go to the keyword search tool and figure out quality keywords? Yeah, go? Yeah. What is it?

Michael Greenberg
So if we’re doing for content creation, you definitely want to have keywords in play. Um, and you want to have an outline of the written content that you’re trying to produce at the end? Because that outline is going to help you develop the questions you need to answer while you’re speaking. And it’s going to keep you more on track.

Casey Stanton
And is the outline more than just like, what’s the topic? Why is it important, who should care about it? What should they do and what’s the next step?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, so I use what I I call a three layer outline, which is to say it’s got initial topics subtopics. And then specific examples underneath in the all has to be mapped out. So the outline might be a page or two long arm. And that that keeps it that keeps it tight.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So in producing content, you want to be able to know what you’re talking about, not just show up to a blank screen blank page. And maybe the way to find that is, as you said, following that framework, and then how do you fill that framework in? I think, if you care about SEO, if that’s part of the play here, if it’s content for the website probably makes sense to pull keywords, right, yeah, initial keyword research.

Michael Greenberg
And you want to in podcasts can rank now as independent SERPs. So you want to make sure that you’ve if you are going after SEO, that you’re looking at those podcasts listing opportunities.

Casey Stanton
And I would say that, based on this, it seems like SEO is a fine secondary benefit. But the primary benefit, again, is content creation for your website and sales by talking to people directly.

Michael Greenberg
Exactly. Now, the exception to that is the local case. Because if you’re local, you can very likely carve out the market under the radio show and podcast keywords, and then start pushing into another area.

Casey Stanton
Give me an idea of like an example what you mean there.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, so for quite a while, I haven’t run the show in a few years, so I’m not sure if it’s still number one. But for quite a while, I was number one for St. Louis business radio, and St. Louis business podcast. And then I was number like, seven or eight for St. Louis business.

Casey Stanton
Oh, interesting. So you’ve stayed local in your podcasts, title and content. And as a result, you’ve dominated the search engines and kind of own that space. Exactly. I think it’s really easy for folks to say like, oh, local doesn’t matter anymore. And it certainly matters.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I still buy things from people near me. If I if I know that you might cheat me, I want to be able to go pick you up and shake you.

Casey Stanton
So let’s let’s kind of move this here to a close. It seems like your approach to podcasting is no different than anything else that I’ve seen. And as a result, I think it’s an exciting approach to podcasting. people listening to this might be saying, Okay, I got it, Michael. I’m just gonna record some content. And thanks for the outline. I got it. And so most people probably can’t do it. But who should reach out to you and what are you offering them to be able to help them?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, so if you’re looking to add podcasting to your brand, or use it to build the most cost efficient parts, content creation machine for your business. Um, then you should reach out to me at call for content calm.

Casey Stanton
Awesome. And over there. You’ve got that B2B Playbook, right?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, so we’ve got the B2B Podcast Playbook, which walks through quite a bit of this in detail. And then, because we talked a little bit about podcast guesting, we’ve also got the Podcast Guest Playbook, which walks through the strategies I recommend for appearing on shows as well. And the Marketing Playbook, which is focused on positioning. And so what I normally recommend is you do the Authority Marketing Playbook to position and niche yourself down, and then the B2B Podcast Playbook to develop the show. And then the Podcast Guest Playbook to go appear on shows and grow your audience. Get your name out there.

Casey Stanton
And I want to put a point in that because that effort to create a podcast is the effort to create a podcast. It’s quantifiable, it is like a certain amount of effort, right? It just like it takes this much time to get all your audio set up. And, you know, master the audio is you get someone else to do it, do the intro to the outro Lipson, the whole shebang right, it’s it that takes like one quantifiable amount of energy, the result of that can be nothing, or it can be a lot. And the difference in that result is not you necessarily right? It’s not like your tonality. It’s not you as a podcast host it’s not your microphone. It’s your ability to find your niche. right to have a clear offer to understand like the utility of the podcast and knowing with certainty and confidence that what you’re doing makes sense for your business and then executing at a like a cadence that makes sense for the business. I want to ask you, what cadence do you recommend? Do you think people should record like a john Lee Dumas like seven episodes a week kind of thing? Or do you think they should do once a week, once a month,

Michael Greenberg
I like once a week. If you’re going after lead gen, there’s no harm in cranking it up. Especially if you have a full time BDR that you can put on as the show host. That’s a fantastic position.

Casey Stanton
Development Rep. And part of their work is just to take that dream 100 list their gold list and just start asking those people to jump on a Friday call or something, interviewing them, and then send that off to your podcast production team.

Michael Greenberg
Yep.

Casey Stanton
Oh, I really like that idea. It’s very simple and total time it would take the BDR is what a weak

Michael Greenberg
To actually reach out and interview. Maybe two hours

Casey Stanton
Two hours a week and they’re getting a like a high tart, high quality target to speak to.

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I mean, I’d expect you to pull in over a year somewhere in the 40 to 50 leads range, assuming your business actually knows who you should be. Speaking with.

Casey Stanton
Yeah. And if you’re listening to this podcast and you’re thinking, Oh, that makes sense, because I’m selling a $27 ebook, reconsider, change your offering, have a more premium offering, and go find the people who can buy it. And maybe there are only 1000 potential buyers in the world. But Michael just laid out a very killer strategy to go get 50 of them at two hours a week. Like, it’s simple. It’s effective. And it’s like, it’s realistic. Michael, I, I’m so frustrated going to events. And I don’t want to say like, you know, high ticket events are dumb, but you go to high ticket events, and people are like, you got to build your audience. If your mailing list is less than 20,000, like what are you doing? Like, what are your sales? What’s the cost per sale? What’s the value of that? What what business are you creating, stop thinking that you’re a marketer and start thinking that you’re creating revenue and you’re using marketing as a tactic.

Michael Greenberg
Don’t believe in marketing or sales, I believe in traction and distribution. And that is that is the part of the business that brings in customers.

Casey Stanton
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely it into that point. Marketing is salesmanship multiplied. Right? And if you can’t, if you can’t sell you can’t market so stop saying that you’re a marketer because you have a big email list. If you’re not making the sales, adopt this approach, start carving out time reach out to Michael go to https://www.callforcontent.com/. And this is Michael Greenberg in Denver, Colorado with this company call for content, reach out to him schedule a call, get that B2B Podcast Playbook, get the authority with the Authority Marketing Playbook. I mean, that’s the one that they should start with making it head on Right, right. Yeah, don’t the podcast out and then go get your 123 Four leads a month. And, like, reflect how effective that channel is for growing your business. And not This isn’t like quit playing the game in your business of like, I’m working harder and I have more Facebook profile views than you or I have more Instagram story views are more reactions to mine. That’s bullshit, right?

Michael Greenberg
Yeah, I like dollars. Views don’t pay the bills. Right man.

Casey Stanton
Yeah, engagement does not pay the bills. Sure it’s a nice thing to have. But if you can’t pay yourself if you can’t pay the bills, if you can’t enjoy the life that you’re creating, it makes no sense. So Michael, I love this idea. We’re going to take it to heart and I hope the listeners do too. And they’ll reach out to you at call for content calm.

Michael Greenberg
Thank you.